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dished - NO BENT - the blade, pics added

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Author Topic: dished - NO BENT - the blade, pics added  (Read 1187 times)
deb193
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« on: February 25, 2011, 09:55:18 pm »

I have been using inexpensive Kingsly North generic 12" crimped blades on my LS12.

But I put about as big a piece as the vise will hold, and I cut hard agate and jasper. It starts to cut crooked, then shreds the belt before I can turn it off. Then I find the blade is dished. Second one in 6 weeks.

I ordered a 301 GemKIng and I hope it cuts faster and I have better luck with it. Looks like a fine blade.

Maybe I can back down on size just a bit too.

Sigh.
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2011, 10:03:12 pm »

My LS12 came new with I believe it is a MK302 or 300 something. 5 years later and many big rocks later, still sweetly cutting.
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deb193
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2011, 10:26:56 pm »

I have over a year on the blade in my LS10, I can only hope the 301 lasts 5 years in the LS12.

On my Star trim saw I go through 2 blades a year.
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2011, 10:31:00 pm »

Keep turning the blade around, it will cause it to dish the other way and self correct itself.
Dishing is caused because the rock pushes on one side of the blade and not the other, which is exactly how they make tuba's by spinning a flat disc and applying pressure to one side. If you are dishing you are very slightly out of alignment. You can either fix the alignment or you can keep turning the blade around, of course this will not work if you have a directional blade.

Have a great day...........Tony
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2011, 06:02:52 am »

Keep turning the blade around, it will cause it to dish the other way and self correct itself.
Dishing is caused because the rock pushes on one side of the blade and not the other, which is exactly how they make tuba's by spinning a flat disc and applying pressure to one side. If you are dishing you are very slightly out of alignment. You can either fix the alignment or you can keep turning the blade around, of course this will not work if you have a directional blade.

Have a great day...........Tony

I found out the hard way this week that dishing can be caused by not dressing the blade often enough. My blade dished when the autofeed on my saw kept pushing the stone into the blade before the blade had cut enough.

so this leads to a question for the more experienced users...how often do you dress your blade?

Thanks!
Tom
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deb193
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2011, 09:04:15 am »

if the blade slowly acquired the dish, I would be right with Tony. And the crimped blade could have been turned around.

But when you find the blade crooked and stalled in a large chunk of rock and the belt is shredded, and the blade worked fine on the prior cut - well that is not going to be fixed by turning it around. Sadly.

possibly if I had dresed the blade and changed the oil sooner, it would have made it through the cut. BUT, I knew I was pushing it. The biggest rock I cut so far, and it was a very hard lizzard agate. jut plain my fault.
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 09:59:38 am »

if the blade slowly acquired the dish, I would be right with Tony. And the crimped blade could have been turned around.

But when you find the blade crooked and stalled in a large chunk of rock and the belt is shredded, and the blade worked fine on the prior cut - well that is not going to be fixed by turning it around. Sadly.

possibly if I had dresed the blade and changed the oil sooner, it would have made it through the cut. BUT, I knew I was pushing it. The biggest rock I cut so far, and it was a very hard lizzard agate. jut plain my fault.

deb, when sawing large size and hard materials the feed rate needs to be slowed down to decrease the chance of overcrowding the blades capacity to cut. Is your feed rate variable? If not then you might want to see if there is possibly a way of slowing it down.

Don
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 02:13:53 pm »

the only variabiality in the feed rate is when the clutch slips. lol.

I need to stop putting rocks suited to an 16" or 18" saw on my 12"

also, the more agresive blade is "like" slowing the feed.
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2011, 03:52:09 pm »

Just a thought. Would speeding up the blade by changing the pully help if you can't slow the feed?

Fred
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2011, 05:36:39 pm »

There are really only two things that will cup a blade.  One is misalignment and the other is slipping sideways instead of starting the cut properly.  If the problem is misalignment, then reversing the blade will only work once or twice before the center of the blade becomes larger than the rim can work with and the blade will become a cymbol.  I have a few.  I never dress a blade.  My saws are set up at optimum blade speed and oil is pressure fed directly to the rim.  Rim speed is controlled by step pulleys.  I believe optimum speed is actually faster than normally recommended, but that definitely requires really good lubrication.  It also really throws a lot of oil around.  My saws tend to drip oil at the seems.  I use the cheapest thinnest blades I can find, but then again I enjoy doing a lot of maintenance.  Way better than bending over a car engine.
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2011, 06:00:40 pm »

Quote
I use the cheapest thinnest blades I can find, but then again I enjoy doing a lot of maintenance.

slabbercabber, why the cheapest? or have you tried the better higher priced with not so good results?

I'm up for a new blade real soon but I want to cut reasonably fast but with little down time/maintenance time.
The blade that I have now cuts slow but little down time. It came with the saw when I picked it up used. I have no idea what brand or cost of the blade. I've had it going 2.5 years now. I upped the blade RPM by 370 RPM's and slowed down the feed rate using a 5" pulley instead of the 4" pulley. It's a Lortone 18".

I agree, no fun bending over a car engine. If I have to work on a car then I had rather work under it. It's much better laying on your back anyday.

Don
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2011, 01:51:49 pm »

I may have caused some confusion, I should have said I BENT the blade. Dishing is a cupping and affects the whole circumference. I bent the blade where one section, about 30 degrees of arc, does not lay flat.

Apologies for being imprecise in using the term dished.

You can see it is bent in this pic:



and you can see how the rock has the nuts on the vise all the way up. Except for overwhelming the blade, I do not know why it started cutting crooked. It cut the sister slab with no problems. Possibly the blade slid a little at the start, don't know. Possibly the oil was a little gritty and there was too much friction.





I think I should get a thermally protected motor however, given my habits and track record. You can see from the shredding of the belt that it must have been pulling a lot of amps and heating up before I shut it off. The belt actully melted onto the pulley.




Is there such a thing as an in-line kill switch that could be triggered by an amp spike? Like a circuit breaker, but not at 15 or 20 amps.
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2011, 02:36:55 pm »

Is that a rubber or neoprene belt? I have never melted a rubber belt .
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2011, 03:09:51 pm »

Daniel, to me,after seeing the pix, it looks like the rock slipped. Kind of squirted backwards. Wood wedges, to keep the vise faces parallel to each other is important. I can tell you this because of what I have gone through, on our LS12.
Myself, I need to replace the wooden, or are they masonite, pieces that are part of the vise. Mine are getting rather roughed up, and I believe, that I occassionally have some slippage issues because of that
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deb193
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2011, 03:23:23 pm »

it is the link belt that harbor freight sells

I find they vibrate less if the pulleys are slightly out of line, and I never had a problem with melting before.

http://www.harborfreight.com/vibration-free-link-belt-43771.html

I am also looking closer at the pulley sizes. using what was there when I got it, but the drive is 2.25 and the blade is 4, with the motor at 1725, this menas that have a ratio for .56, or a blade RPM of about 970, which is at the lower end of the 301 recommendations, and below the lower end on the 303 recommendations. Don't know the recommendations for the KIngsly blade, but I think it was likely turning too slow.

possibly it was rigged this way because the motor is 1/3 and not 1/2, but I am going to get a 3" pulley for the drive, and that will give me about 1300 RPM, which is in the middle of the range recommended for the MK 301.

I would go over to ACE right now, but we have a severe thunderstorm going on. Anyway, I have enough of the belt material to rig another one, and I should be able to get the pulley tomorrow, and I have a brand new 301 blade, and lots of rock to cut. Think I might change the oil while I am at it.

Hope to have the saw up again by Wed. Meanwhile I am going to cut a lot with the LS10 tonight, and probably change the oil in both saws early in the week. May as well do both while I am getting dirty.

---------

as for the vice, it is almost like leather rather than masonite, but whatever, mine seem in good shape.

I checked the tightness of the wingnuts and tried to move the rock. it seemed tight, but maybe it did slip a mm or so.

I often have the top metal plate at an angle that follows the rock. I am not clear about wood blocks to keep the top plate level. more contact, and the front end lower than the back end seems more secure. maybe I miss your point.
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2011, 03:28:24 pm »

I've experienced this too. Not to that degree. It usually just overload the motor due to friction & it kicks the breaker. In stone some times there is a harder place in it. Like an agate pocket in a softer jasper. That can force the blade over. Or the rock can slip or rotate in the vice part way through the cut. I run into uneven cuts all the time. I use a fairly thin (32 thou) so it's rather flexable & susseptable to hardness variations. When puting a stone in the vice. Before stating your cut. Be SURE the stone is secure & can't move side to side or up & down.
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2011, 03:37:35 pm »

Daniel, was just saying, I have had a squirting issue. My answer was the wedges. Kind of puts the rock, in a three point stance. Get around the oldtimers and they have wood wedges up the wazoo, by their saws. Something truely bad happened with that blade, whatever the cause.
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2011, 04:29:38 pm »

I like to run mine at the upper end of the scale, maybe a little over. 303P calls for an additional 25% increase of the whole scale.
Looks like that rock may have tried to squirt out to the right to me, doesn't take much to ding a blade when it moves sideways.

If you run your belt a little looser, then when that happens it will just stop the blade and the belt, the pulley on the motor will continue to turn and smoke the belt and possibly the motor pulley (depends on how long before you get it shut off), but belts are cheaper than motors or blades. You also know something is wrong cause it will start smoking like crazy!

I would take that blade off and ping it back into shape. You got nothing to lose but a blade you are gonna trash anyways.

Good luck with it...............Tony
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« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2011, 04:37:01 pm »

seeng as how the vise was pushing the blade to the right, yall may be right.

I normally use the wood blocks and wedges with a vise that clamps front and back, but I get the point. I would love to have a vise that grips in all directions - like a ring with screws at 9-12-3 o'clock.

anyway, the alignment seems good and the carriage seems tight. I think I got too over confidant in clamping htings up and not expecting trouble. This was after a run of 5-6 largish rocks that began with Sooke Rhodonite, then Pilbara Jasper, then Bulico, fossil coral, kabamba, mexican poppy rhyolite, and then the lizzard stone. I know I was getting a little careless/hasty.

Glad it was just a cheap $60 blade. I intend to be much more careful with the MK 301, cause it cost me $150.
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« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2011, 05:14:22 pm »



slabbercabber, why the cheapest? or have you tried the better higher priced with not so good results?


I use cheap blades because they tend to be more aggressive and waste less material.  Since I use a pressure feed intead of gear driven that speeds things up.

Motor protection by amperage is called "motor starter"  Sized properly, these systems will give absolute protection against motor overload.  You will need to do some research to learn how to size it, but it isn't terribly difficult.  All industrial applications are protected in this manner as are all of mine.
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2011, 08:00:34 pm »


deb, your vice feed is independant of the blade turning,right? Your main switch turns on both the blade motor and the feed motor. If so you need a switch like slabbercabber says.AllenBradley has a on/off switch with heaters, I call them heaters, if the motor draws too many amps over  period of time the heating up of these heaters turns the switch off.
At times when I have had some large hard rocks to slab I have found the saw switch tripped. I now have trained myself to check the switch toggle position before I raise the top. I have this fear of not checking, raise the top and the saw starts up, bad news. I really don't think it would but funnier things have happened before.
Getting back to the blade being bent it looks like the blade had a bind, the belt melted and the feed and blade motors continued to run pushing the rock onto the blade.
You need the special no/off switch cause if the belt is too loose it will happen again.

JMHO

Don

 

 
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2011, 09:50:36 pm »

Don, you may be right. I got to it pretty quick after I heard a squeel, but I was in the next room. It is possible after the blade stopped, that the autofeed still turning caused the bend, and not the bend happening first.

there is a pull chain to a switch that turns offboth the blade and the feed, and there is another switch that turns off just the feed.

But the motor I had backin PA on my Beacon Star would shut off when the blade bound up. If I did not get to it quick enough to turn it off myself, it just would shut off. I would then turn off the saw and pull the rock off the blade, and it would still not turn on. After a few minutes the motor cooled down, and there would be an audible click, and then if I turned it on it would spin. I understood this was thermal protection built into the motor.

This Dayton motor does not seem to have that. I will research "motor start" and "heaters" and see what I come up with.
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2011, 10:20:55 pm »

Don, you may be right. I got to it pretty quick after I heard a squeel, but I was in the next room. It is possible after the blade stopped, that the autofeed still turning caused the bend, and not the bend happening first.

there is a pull chain to a switch that turns offboth the blade and the feed, and there is another switch that turns off just the feed.

But the motor I had backin PA on my Beacon Star would shut off when the blade bound up. If I did not get to it quick enough to turn it off myself, it just would shut off. I would then turn off the saw and pull the rock off the blade, and it would still not turn on. After a few minutes the motor cooled down, and there would be an audible click, and then if I turned it on it would spin. I understood this was thermal protection built into the motor.

This Dayton motor does not seem to have that. I will research "motor start" and "heaters" and see what I come up with.

My 1/2 hp motor doesn't have a thermal protection  either. When the switch cuts off because of the overheating/current draw I have to reset the toggle on the switch to get the saw operational again.

Don
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2011, 11:19:17 am »

Heat build up is how a breaker switch works. You could use one of the power strips or a power cord with the breaker built right in. They work for either fault current (good for being arround wet environments & hands) or heat for overload on the motor. I run my 10" combo unit through one. As far as banging out a bent blade. I've never had any luck at all trying that. The blade "oil cans" bend one side & the other side pops out of alignment. Last one I bent was only 2 days after buying it new. I was hand holding a chunk that was too big for the vise & it shifted in my hands (rolled) & tweeked the blade. Oh XW$@&*^T LOL There goes another $50.
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2011, 10:57:55 am »

I rounded up a switch I purchased at a estate auction, he was a electrican, years ago.

This switch has the thermal protection (heater coil) in it and is good for 3/4hp @ at 115volts or 1hp @ 120 volts.
The heater coil could be changed to accommodate a smaller hp motor I'm sure.

Don

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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2011, 11:51:20 am »

The cheapest easiest way is to get a power strip with the circuit breaker built right in. It'll cut out if it get too hot from over draw. I run my 10" combo unit throuh one & it works just fine. If the blade binds a little & creats too much friction & overloads the motor. It pops off. I shut off the switch unbind the blade. Wait a few min. to let it cool down reset & off & running again. Cheap, easy & efficient. You can get extention cords with one built in too.
Mike
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2011, 02:21:32 pm »

this sounds promising. sounds better than paying $$$ for a new thermally protected Daton motor form Covinginton.

I have read some guys on a woodworkign forum be very negative abotu these poewr strips "starving" the motor, but they were talkign abotu a 2HP motor.

I guess I want to know more about how much amps my motor draws when starting, running, and bogging down, and whether different brands of power strip circuit breakers have different sensitivities.

I think I will get a modestly priced amp meter that clamps around the wire for convenient metering.

thinking to change the oil tonight, got the new pulley, have the belt, have the blade. Maybe get it all running again tomorrow noght or Friday night.
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2011, 05:13:20 pm »

deb,
If you or some one has to purchase a new motor they might want to check out the amp draw of different motors and compare 110/220. An electric motor usually requires 2 to 3 times as many amps starting as when running. This will vary according to load.
A 1/2 hp 110/115 volts requires twice as many amps to run continuesly as a 1/2 hp 220/230 motor. This is the reason industry uses higher voltage plus 3 phase.
One needs to consider what will it take to get  220 volts  to the motor too.

Don
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2011, 06:07:54 pm »

Sorry, I should have given more information about motor starters.  The electric strips are simply another form of breaker like tho ones that protect your house circuits only less reliable.   They are not sized to protect any particular load, just against short circuits.  Motor starters allow the motor to draw high amperage for a short time while it starts.  If the motor continues to draw high current for more than a second or two then it will trip.  It will also trip if the motor draws very high current as in a short, only much more quickly, saving your wiring.  Motor starters using heaters are going away because electronic starters have become much less expensive.  Also electronic starters can be adjusted to motor size by changing a setting.  Changing heaters is expensive. 
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2011, 07:18:42 pm »

do you have a source for the electronic starters?
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« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2011, 05:11:17 pm »

Been away from a computer for a while.   I buy a lot of this type of thing from Automation Direct.  Good prices, same day shipping.
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« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2011, 05:31:04 pm »

good website. thanks.
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« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2014, 05:01:34 pm »

I experienced the same thing and to the extreme that you are. I was baffled and could not figure out what was the issue. I broke down every part of the saw and made sure that there was no play or slop in the parts. Reassembled the saw and put in a new blade and still it bent the blade and jammed the saw to the point that it kicked the breaker. I was at a lost for a solution. One day I grabbed the blade and pulled / pushed it back and forth...I noticed a very little play in the arbor shaft. So I took a look at the bearings they looked fine but since the price for new ones were not that bad I replaced both of them. That did the trick I have not had any problems with blades bending or jamming since. I can not believe how little play there was but it was noticeable. The seals in the pillow block bearings were still intact...just that little amount of back and forth movement when I pushed and pulled the blade.

The saw is an older Loratone 10" saw.

Mike
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« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2014, 05:47:14 pm »

I just started cutting slab with on older Star Beacon (Diamond Star), and a new blade.
After a few perfect cuts, I had a jam up due to the d**g clamp being loose.
Since then NOTHING CUTS without burning up a belt after a couple of minutes or so. (if I'm not fast enough).
Looks like I need to align the feed rail to the blade if possible... and buy a new blade.
Wish there was a way to bang these old blades back!!

Fred
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« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2014, 07:03:47 am »

Don how about a link for that overheating switch? It sounds like a great solution!
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« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2014, 09:43:27 am »

That belt looks familiar. I bought some at Harbor Freight. They really cut the vibration like magic.
The other day my blade stuck while cutting - I was a few feet away but heard the "silence".
Ran over in time to turn the motor off. Just melted the belt a bit. Still useable but had to remove a link because the heat stretched it a bit.
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« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2014, 10:17:18 pm »

yes, I like the link belts
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