Orca/EZ torch with atmospheric oxygen

[Bentiron]

It does make a big difference as to how much heat is spread throughout the metal if it is flat or up just a wee bit off of the brick. I actually got an enameling wire grid on fire brick for doing really large bezels, 2"+ stone size, and it makes all the difference in the world how easy they go down on the back plate. At the same time I'm attaching the bezel all the other decoration is getting soldered on, the balls, the leaves, the twists, just by getting it up off the brick so that the heat can get under there helps it get even heat all over all the pieces of silver.
Yes, Argentium will solve some  if not all of these problems of firescale and tarnish but for some of us who have been doing Sterling silver work for decades it is just not practical to set up another bench with dedicated tooling for another metal, maybe on a hobby level it won't matter if the scrap and swarf is contaminated with a bit of odd metal but when one does quanity work it does matter. It means that the our scrap cannot be melted down and rolled or drawn out for reuse, it just complicates the whole matter.

[Carol M]

It does make a big difference as to how much heat is spread throughout the metal if it is flat or up just a wee bit off of the brick. I actually got an enameling wire grid on fire brick for doing really large bezels, 2"+ stone size, and it makes all the difference in the world how easy they go down on the back plate. At the same time I'm attaching the bezel all the other decoration is getting soldered on, the balls, the leaves, the twists, just by getting it up off the brick so that the heat can get under there helps it get even heat all over all the pieces of silver.
Yes, Argentium will solve some  if not all of these problems of firescale and tarnish but for some of us who have been doing Sterling silver work for decades it is just not practical to set up another bench with dedicated tooling for another metal, maybe on a hobby level it won't matter if the scrap and swarf is contaminated with a bit of odd metal but when one does quanity work it does matter. It means that the our scrap cannot be melted down and rolled or drawn out for reuse, it just complicates the whole matter.

Actually Bent, that's a 'common misconception'.  I don't know about all recovery companies but I do know that with RioGrande you just put your scrap Regular Sterling and scrap Argentium Sterling in the same scrap pile to get it recovered.

I no longer work in Sterling and sold what I had to other students at the school where I'm taking classes and I take my own charcoal block [on my little copper spinner] as well as my own MyTFlux to class [because it works best with Argentium Sterling] but other than that I use the regular school tools and pickle and tumbler and ultrasonic cleaner, and it hasn't had any adverse effect on my Argentium pieces.

There are some 'different procedures' you use with Argentium though like you don't coat the whole piece in flux, just the part you're soldering or fusing. 
Also, in some cases, like when you're fusing granulation or doing any fusing, you use diluted MyTFlux and let the flux dry so that the pieces stick in place.  That works well when fusing dapped wires or little balls on domed beads etc too.  I love that there's no solder to show up....because ......there's no solder involved.
I do like that fact when I anneal Argentium it doesn't turn dark...the more times you anneal it the whiter it gets.  I use magic marker to tell if 'it's annealed'.  When the magic marker marks disappear.....it's annealed.  EasyPeasy.
Anyway, with Sterling prices as low as they've been in years, now's a good time to 'give it a try'.

[Bentiron]

Carol, I recycle my own silver, I draw my own wire, roll my own sheet from clean scrap so I can't mix my scrap. Yes, it fine if I send of my off to the refiners but the price allowed from my refiner does go down accordingly when assayed, if it has too much solder, too much copper or whatever in it the price I receive per ounce goes down for my "dirty" scrap. The "purer" the scrap the better the price. Why get 75% of spot when you can get 80% or even 95% of spot for good quality scrap, or better yet make your own product? I have been doing my own clean scrap for nearly fifty years now(not so much lately but old  habits of smithing die hard) and I'm not really interested in the higher price of Agentium compared to Sterling. I also know how it works, yes, it has it problems but so does Agentium, nothing is without fault, let the metal without sin cast the first......well something

[Goldsmithy]

I use 'Prips" flux to help prevent firescale. It is used by heating the metal slightly and then spraying on the work piece.  At the right heat, the water in the flux will evaporate, leaving a white flux coating on the work piece. Then solder, using regular flux on the solder joint.  It greatly reduces firescale. I used to make my own (I forget the formula, but it is readily available) , but now I use the commercially available version. IIRC, Rio Grande carries it and it is not expensive. There is a small learning curve in getting the proper heat right and it adds an extra step in soldering, but it sure saves a lot of time in finishing the work piece.

[Rockaholic]

I'm still a bit of a newb and have only worked with copper (but yes, I'm making the jump to silver soon!), but I'm an Orca user and I've found it a bit difficult to get a nice gentle, purring reducing flame with the torch. The air intake adjuster is WAY too touchy; it always seems like the air is either full-blast or nothing. I've used both boric acid + alcohol and a more standard fluoride-containing flux called "Wolverine Joining Tech" that Gerard (Teton Art Gallery) was kind enough to send me. I don't think the boric+alcohol flux is really meant for solder flow, but I've found it to work best between the two at stopping scale. I'm a bit surprised it didn't work for you.

I'd also recommend trying the next tip size up, since it should be easier to get a reducing flame whilst keeping your heat up. I recall reading in the specs that the smallest tip that comes with the Orca has a max temp lower than that of the other two (which makes sense). Not sure if there's anything in there you didn't already know, but there it is!

[Carol M]

Carol, I recycle my own silver, I draw my own wire, roll my own sheet from clean scrap so I can't mix my scrap. Yes, it fine if I send of my off to the refiners but the price allowed from my refiner does go down accordingly when assayed, if it has too much solder, too much copper or whatever in it the price I receive per ounce goes down for my "dirty" scrap. The "purer" the scrap the better the price. Why get 75% of spot when you can get 80% or even 95% of spot for good quality scrap, or better yet make your own product? I have been doing my own clean scrap for nearly fifty years now(not so much lately but old  habits of smithing die hard) and I'm not really interested in the higher price of Agentium compared to Sterling. I also know how it works, yes, it has it problems but so does Agentium, nothing is without fault, let the metal without sin cast the first......well something

Fair enough, Bent,
Actually that's very interesting that you recycle your own silver.  I've heard many Argentium folks do that as well because if they fuse a lot there's no solder in the mix.  Just Argentium Sterling.

Nearly 50 years [gasp].....you must have started with you were 2 years old!!!! [chuckle].
Have you ever tried Delft Casting???
Another of a looooong list of jewelry related 'toys' I'd like to mess around with.

[Goldsmithy]

The piece you are working on should determine the type of torch you use. I have been making 'stuff' for 30+ years and have used most of the different types of torches. Here's my experience.

1. My first torch was a "Bernzomatic (?)". The type that the regulator and tip just screwed on the end of a propane bottle. Problem was that every time you lifted the torch to solder, the flame would change. I used it for silver, copper, N/S but I couldn't afford or even dream about working in gold or platinum. I couldn't afford anything else. I used it successfully for about two years and made a whole lot of scrap metal. I wouldn't recommend this torch to any beginner.

2. My second torch I bought at a flea market was a "Pres-to-lite" air/acetylene which is similar to the Smith A/A torch. This torch is what I recommend to my students for any and all work in copper and silver. I still use this type of torch (the Smith) today for most of the work in silver that I do.

3. My third torch, and my right hand since I got my first one, was a propane/oxygen  Smith "Little Torch". You can get a tip to give you any type and size of flame for the job at hand. If you are making your living doing jewelry, this is the torch I would recommend.  If you are just starting out and using silver or copper, you will have a loooong learning curve and end up frustrated with a big pile of scrap. But you'll be able to solder anything...

4. My fourth torch is an 'aqua' torch. It takes water and breaks it down into hydrogen and oxygen which it then burns. It has a very precise flame that is VERY hot. It is a special use torch. 

I have never used one of the butane torches for soldering. They weren't invented when I was learning to solder. :) I have one that I use at my wax bench and I would agree with what everyone else said about them.

[Debbie K]

Goldsmithy:

Ah, you're using Brown gas? I investigated that a few years ago but the set-ups were too expensive; I thought it might be useful in casting. I do centrifugal casting (even though I have a vacuum caster) and use Mapp to melt silver and gold, and Mapp and oxygen for bronze. When I do small to medium bronzes, I use the electric crucible, but I was looking into ways of melting larger amounts of bronze than it could handle. The last medium sized bronze I did required two crucibles to cast. I finally realized the best way to go would be a foundry, and I've bought all the makings for one, just waiting for the weather to cool down before I start that project.

Next time I order from Rio I'll try to remember the Prip's. I never had this problem with the propane only.

I've used a Bernzomatic with the hose for years and years, and to tell you truth, don't really know why I got the Orca, because the Bernzomatic worked well. But every once in a while, I want to focus in on a smaller area without melting all the solder on the whole piece. I know, improper technique, because the solder really does get a little harder every time you heat it, but it takes real concentration to not let the heat go too far. I will never, ever, be really good at soldering; I've just accepted my limitations and make design decisions that minimize solder joints. I'm better than I was, but a long way from good.

Rockaholic, I was using the small tip. I'm going to change over to the larger one and see how that works. Don't have anything I need to solder right now, so I'll practice on scrap.

Carol, I'm like Bentiron; I recycle all my silver. I use all the scrap for casting, and sometimes ingots that I roll or draw wire from. All my crucibles are for either sterling, gold, fine silver or bronze. I don't really want to gear up for another metal. If it were proven to work well with enamel, I might be a lot more interested, but the jury is still out on that score. I'm waiting for the enamellists to do the research for me; the PMC is a case in point. Yes, you can enamel it (sort of) if it is really, really clean and really burnished well, but honestly, you're much better off casting and tumbling fine silver. Most folks don't want to cast; it scares them and the equipment is expensive. I also like that sterling oxidizes, or tarnishes as you call it.

Debbie K

[sealdaddy]

[DonniesTreasures]

Thank  you, thank you, thank you!!!!  That is just exactly what I need to see. 

[Bentiron]

Debbie, I got started in bronze casting from a request of a friend that was repairing a pair of fine dueling pistols that had been stolen during a burglary and recovered. The insurance company was paying for the restoration that my friend was doing and he was not able to find a foundry that would cast the necessary parts for the fee he had given the insurance company. So I figured that if the ancients could do it so could I, I just never thought it take me on journey it did. I built my own melting furnace, burnout oven, crucible tongs, the only thing I didn't make was the crucible. What a journey this was but it turned out well for the most part casting his necessary items. My first major purchase for casting bronze was a pyrometer, it is so necessary to determine the correct temperature to pour the bronze. The last pour I made before my back got so bad I couldn't lift the crucible safely was 65# of bronze, that's a good sized sculpture! I really didn't feel all that safe with my back hurting like it did so I haven't handled a big pot like that since.
I like the aged patina(tarnish) that comes on old well worn Sterling silver jewelry, it has a real mellow look to it that only comes with years of wear. I don't know that Argentium will ever get that look. I grew up in Santa Fe, NM and the Indians used to have all of this jewelry made from old Mexican pesos and it had such a nice look to it, not just the turquoise but the metal, that's the part I loved, the metal.

[Goldsmithy]

Brown gas???? I have been using propane or acetylene and air/oxygen forever and I never investigated it. I lust for a laser  welder. You're never to old to dream

[PontiousP]

I got this info from the guy at Kingsleynorth...

Hi, 

Okay, here are some recommendations:
 

Mix the following-

·         1 cup denatured alcohol

·         1 tablespoon boric acid - http://www.kingsleynorth.com/skshop/product.php?id=101286&catID=527

·         Mix ingredients well

 

Paint this on the surface of the metal and flame it off. If you use too much it will inhibit solder flow. After it is flamed off the surface, quench it in the pickle ( do not quench if there is a stone set, it could fracture the stone).
 

Let me know if you if have any questions.

Thank you,
Richard
Kingsley North, Inc

www.kingsleynorth.com
1-800-338-9280

Hope this helps.

[bobby1]

Fire scale isn't particularly due to the type of fuel gas or torch other than if the torch requires a long time to heat the piece. Reducing fire scale is accomplished through a thorough covering of flux (I use handy flux) and quickly bringing the piece up to soldering temperature, completing the solder and removing the torch. Extended heating of the piece causes fire scale. If the torch is too small or the fuel gas doesn't burn hot enough you spend too much time trying to get the piece up to soldering temperature. I heat a spot on the fire brick with a large hot flame until it glows red. Then I slide the piece over the hot spot, reduce the size of the flame and complete the solder join. This method is simulating having a torch under the piece while heating the top for the soldering. Some people use a tripod to hold the piece in the air to apply the torch under the piece. I don't like tripods because you have to have a large torch and flame just to heat the tripod and screen. This just extends the heating time and exacerbates the opportunity to generate fire scale.
I use a Little Torch with a #4 tip and oxy/acetylene as gases. Acetylene burns the hottest of any fuel gas by far other than maybe hydrogen.
Bob