Can you do larger 'faceting' of regular stones with an Ameritool FlatLap??

[Carol M]

Total Newbie question -
Possible Blasphemy!! 
Can you do larger 'faceting' of regular [non-gemmy stones with an Ameritool FlaLap and a 'Jerry-Rigged' set-up to hold the angles?
Just curious 

[bgast1]

I would imagine you can do it. But it is very difficult to get the scratches out on a flat surface with the Ameritool. Many folks will facet a cab, but I personally never could see the reason for it. I know they do them and show them off over at rock tumbling hobby. I think there is even a tutorial.

[tkcaz]

If by "larger" you mean simpler, cab-scale flat surfaces, then yes, but it's not easy. You need a solid and angled support just like a faceting machine provides. You can't hold it steady enough by hand. I use a peice of square aluminum bar laid across the splash cowling, then laid on that a small protractor to hold the dop stick itself.  It works, but it's klugey and so far it's only given me mediocre results. When (if) I get the time I want to make a jigs that's a little more sturdy and reliable.

Tim

[jakesrocks]

Carol, you like do it yourself projects. Look up Jamb Peg faceting. It's one of the first forms of faceting machines, and very easy to build. You should be able to do simple faceting on just about any size stone you want with one of them.

[hulagrub]

Carol, I have done it with a piece of flourite. It was triangular and flat sided, but polished up nice.

[Carol M]

Carol, you like do it yourself projects. Look up Jamb Peg faceting. It's one of the first forms of faceting machines, and very easy to build. You should be able to do simple faceting on just about any size stone you want with one of them.

ERGH!!!
I must admit the video I saw doesn't really make me want to 'jump in there' but maybe I need to do some other investigating.

[Carol M]

Carol, I have done it with a piece of flourite. It was triangular and flat sided, but polished up nice.

Hmmmm,
Got any photos, Dave??

[Bentiron]

I have seen some really nicely done large quartz faceted stones with the jamb peg system. It's what they used before the advent of all this fancy stuff with minuet of angle settings and micrometer adjustments for everything for the of cutting facets. If you look at some of the old rose cut stones they were done this way.

[johnjsgems]

Ameritool tested a prototype facet attachment a few years ago.  They decided the base wasn't sturdy enough.  You can grind flat planes on a cab but without the mast you wouldn't be able to get the precise angles of a facet machine. 

[Debbie K]

[Carol M]

Debbie,
You are my hero [again]
How in heck do you come up with these cool things?
I guess, when you think about it.....in olden days people faceted gemstones and managed, even before electricity.
The delicate and very precise nature of the really POSH gemstones probably jumped in quality by light-years in the 20th century, but my interests are not so 'high-falutin' as that.
This video brings my interests back into 'the realm of the real'.
Hmmmm.
Thank you [again, and again]

[tkcaz]

Debbie, that's awesome, thank you!

Tim

[Debbie K]

You're more than welcome, you guys! I thought about making the same thing until I got my old graves machine. I might still make one to keep from buying the indexes.

Debbie

[kennyg]

noticed this one pretty cool

Great thread Mark!

This "type" or "class" of material is by far my favorite to work with.

Thought I would add a Labradorite to the collection of pics (please overlook the workmanship) one of my first but favorites.






and a pic of various spectrums.



Carleton

[Carol M]

Yes....Thanks Kennyg.
That's EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm thinking of.
Did you make that or was it someone else?
Were the angles 'eyeballed' or was there a 'simple tool' used to keep that angle??

[kennyg]

No I didn't do this I found it in a thread by Mark topic chatoyant stones posted in2009. Great topic beautiful photos

[hulagrub]

Carol, I can't find the pix on our PC. Will try and find it here.

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

You guys all know the Ameritool uses the softer (I call them semi-rigid as the name explains them I think) diamond sanding discs right? Will it still work with those or would one have to buy all hard discs? I'm thinking of the drag the sanding discs put on some material - problem yay/nay?

Also - y'all must have some better Ameritools than mine as mine vibrates too much to use the gadgets shown in the video Debbie posted. Nowhere near as bad as an Inland (or mine Inland at least) but still enough to make me wish I had a graves.

[Carol M]

You guys all know the Ameritool uses the softer (I call them semi-rigid as the name explains them I think) diamond sanding discs right? Will it still work with those or would one have to buy all hard discs? I'm thinking of the drag the sanding discs put on some material - problem yay/nay?

Also - y'all must have some better Ameritools than mine as mine vibrates too much to use the gadgets shown in the video Debbie posted. Nowhere near as bad as an Inland (or mine Inland at least) but still enough to make me wish I had a graves.

Hi Frank,
I certainly wouldn't describe my discs as 'semi-rigid'.  They're certainly hard.   Re vibration, mine doesn't seem to really vibrate, but I can't compare it with the one in the video.
Guess I'm telling myself......in the days before electricity, people managed to cut faceted stones and I'd bet they didn't have equipment as nice as what's out there now.
To a large extent, I suppose it depends on 'how perfect' you expect these facets to be, but it's nice to know that it can still be done.

Thanks guys!!
That's what I wondered, and some day [when I have fewer challenges on my plate] I may 'give it a whirl.
That little video is a 'good beginning.
Thanks again.

[jakesrocks]

You guys all know the Ameritool uses the softer (I call them semi-rigid as the name explains them I think) diamond sanding discs right? Will it still work with those or would one have to buy all hard discs? I'm thinking of the drag the sanding discs put on some material - problem yay/nay?

Also - y'all must have some better Ameritools than mine as mine vibrates too much to use the gadgets shown in the video Debbie posted. Nowhere near as bad as an Inland (or mine Inland at least) but still enough to make me wish I had a graves.

The Inland disks are rigid steel, and reasonably priced. They come in 6" and 8" sizes and fit standard arbors. (!/2" Hole).

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

You guys all know the Ameritool uses the softer (I call them semi-rigid as the name explains them I think) diamond sanding discs right? Will it still work with those or would one have to buy all hard discs? I'm thinking of the drag the sanding discs put on some material - problem yay/nay?

Also - y'all must have some better Ameritools than mine as mine vibrates too much to use the gadgets shown in the video Debbie posted. Nowhere near as bad as an Inland (or mine Inland at least) but still enough to make me wish I had a graves.

The Inland disks are rigid steel, and reasonably priced. They come in 6" and 8" sizes and fit standard arbors. (!/2" Hole).

The also will work on an Ameritool - and vice versa, fwiw.

Carol - I must use more water than you (I do use a lot - lieutenant swarf is not welcome on my enterprise) as my flex quite a bit. It's how I get nice curves leading into the lines when I pseudo-facet (I press them into that flex) -->



--> for example. Krystee tells me she has taken to putting thick rubbery ("like mouse pads") backing on them and pressing in really hard for certain effects. I haven't tried that yet - it's on next year's budget list 

[Carol M]

Now you're talkin' Frank.   

Yes, Krystee told me that too. 

[weird story] I was ordering the whole magilla from Ameritool-inc that Krystee recommended, including the 8" spongy discs that go between the hard disc base and the replaceable topping.
I was having it sent to Pa for me to pick up there [because of the weight and shipping charges] and I asked them to please run the Flat-Lap to make sure all was in order before they shipped it because returning it from Canada is absurd. 
Anyway they said they would.   When I opened the boxes though someone there 'very kindly' put all the colored toppers on the appropriate bases and cut the holes in the middle and everything [talk about amazing customer service] but they didn't realize that they were to put the spongy discs between the base and topper [ERGH]....so I now have a bag of spongy discs but no where to put them.

They said I could return them for a credit but till I shipped them back the savings wouldn't be worth it.
I figure I'll just hang onto them and someday as the removable tops wear out and have to be replaced, I'll just add the spongy disc in between as I go.
I told Krystee this story and she said that actually she had only just started using the spongy disc centers in 2013 and always did it the way I have them.  She said that it'll be good to learn that way, then the spongy discs will just make things better, when I get there.
[She was referring to doing cabs however.....not faceting.]
The harder discs would probably be better for faceting though, now that I think about it.

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

Oh bummer - but nice of them in intent I suppose. Yes I'm impressed with their customer service as well. Mine vibrated badly when I got it and I was going to return it for money back. I called and heard the speech coming - so I stopped them in mid-track and said it's not that I mind returning and re-trying and all that - it's the freakin' shipping costs of doing that! They said no sweat and gave me a number for Fedex and picked up the shipping tab both ways. They swore they did nothing to it but it vibrated a lot less when I got it back. I've since found that if it does get to vibrating (twice so far for me but I am super heavy-handed - I really bear down on these poor things) you can take that little aluminum top off with the hex wrench provided, clean the oxides out of the hold and off the shaft (first time it came off with just a q-tip and some vaseline - second time I had to use 1500 grit sandpaper - no sweat) and get it back to semi-purring again. Apparently the oxide buildup offsets that top just enough to cause excess vibration (or can if you use it harshly anyway). My Inland is the same but builds up oxides WAY quicker (we're talking brass (Inland) versus Aluminum (Ameritool)) and same deal with how little it takes to upset the apple cart.

Yes - hold on to them pads - over time you will wear out discs and you'll be glad you have them. Meantime it works just dandy without them.

Word of warning - that PSA is sticky stuff! I had a VERY hard time prying off one of those discs when I replaced it and the disc came off leaving the PSA and some type of cellophane film (or like it) behind on the backing plate. I tossed the thing into the lid from a 5 gallon bucket and filled it with olive oil and let it set for 48 hours. The goo slid right off. The plate had an oily feel to it that I couldn't get rid of (must have absorbed just a tiny bit of the oil) so I let it soak in rubbing alcohol for 48 hours and it's back in action - haven't had any problems with it and it's been more than a few months now. Thought I'd share that - but if anybody has a better way of re-using those backing plates by all means let us know.

I'd be curious to see you experiment with faceting. You explain things in detail (I like detail) and I'd enjoy reading the adventure while learning a lot that I could actually apply. I too am curious about these faceted cabs and the example that was shown of Carlton's spectrolite (or labradorite - I forget now) was prime!

YOU go girl! 

[Carol M]

Oh bummer - but nice of them in intent I suppose. Yes I'm impressed with their customer service as well. Mine vibrated badly when I got it and I was going to return it for money back. I called and heard the speech coming - so I stopped them in mid-track and said it's not that I mind returning and re-trying and all that - it's the freakin' shipping costs of doing that! They said no sweat and gave me a number for Fedex and picked up the shipping tab both ways. They swore they did nothing to it but it vibrated a lot less when I got it back. I've since found that if it does get to vibrating (twice so far for me but I am super heavy-handed - I really bear down on these poor things) you can take that little aluminum top off with the hex wrench provided, clean the oxides out of the hold and off the shaft (first time it came off with just a q-tip and some vaseline - second time I had to use 1500 grit sandpaper - no sweat) and get it back to semi-purring again. Apparently the oxide buildup offsets that top just enough to cause excess vibration (or can if you use it harshly anyway). My Inland is the same but builds up oxides WAY quicker (we're talking brass (Inland) versus Aluminum (Ameritool)) and same deal with how little it takes to upset the apple cart.

Yes - hold on to them pads - over time you will wear out discs and you'll be glad you have them. Meantime it works just dandy without them.

Word of warning - that PSA is sticky stuff! I had a VERY hard time prying off one of those discs when I replaced it and the disc came off leaving the PSA and some type of cellophane film (or like it) behind on the backing plate. I tossed the thing into the lid from a 5 gallon bucket and filled it with olive oil and let it set for 48 hours. The goo slid right off. The plate had an oily feel to it that I couldn't get rid of (must have absorbed just a tiny bit of the oil) so I let it soak in rubbing alcohol for 48 hours and it's back in action - haven't had any problems with it and it's been more than a few months now. Thought I'd share that - but if anybody has a better way of re-using those backing plates by all means let us know.

I'd be curious to see you experiment with faceting. You explain things in detail (I like detail) and I'd enjoy reading the adventure while learning a lot that I could actually apply. I too am curious about these faceted cabs and the example that was shown of Carlton's spectrolite (or labradorite - I forget now) was prime!

YOU go girl! 

Fascinating note about the olive oil Frank.
Hmmmm.  That makes me wonder how in heck you're supposed to get those toppers off when they do wear out, because OMG they're REALLY ON WELL!!!
You'd think that they were permanently laminated the way they're stuck.

I'm wondering if Acetone would work, since that removes SuperGlue.   Maybe if you took a pan [like a pizza pan or maybe even a round cake pan if it would fit] and poured enough Acetone in it to be about 1/4" deep, and put the disc in the pan, with the ruined topping facing down, that the glue would soften.   Don't know if the Acetone would destroy or damage the base though.
I'm gonna contact Ameritool-Inc and ask them what to use to remove them.
I'll let you know when I hear back.

[jakesrocks]

Carol, be careful with acetone. If you have metal backing plates it will work just fine. But acetone will eat up most plastics.

[Carol M]

Carol, be careful with acetone. If you have metal backing plates it will work just fine. But acetone will eat up most plastics.

Thanks Don, I was afraid of that.
The ones that come with the Ameritool Flat lap are acrylic http://www.ameritool-inc.com/store/index.cfm/product/20_2/backing-plates.cfm
I don't know what the glue is made from but it REALLY STICKS TO THE DISCS.

Anyway, happily I don't have to remove them for a while.
I emailed Ameritool-Inc and asked them what they recommend.
I'll let y'all know when I hear back.

If anyone else knows please 'pipe up'!! 

[bgast1]

Defintely do not use Acetone with Acrylic. That is basically what superglue is. Acetone should be ok with polypropylene though I still store mine in a glass jar if not in the can.

[tkcaz]

I tend to use them until they wear out, (~6 months, but I don't use them often), then they come off a little easier. I've been tempted to try a light mineral oil like 3M. My guess is specialty products like WD-40 have so much solvent in them they would probably also attack the plastic backing.

Tim

[Carol M]

Talk about a speedy reply from Ameritool-Inc.

I just heard back re how to remove the topper from the Ameritool backing disc. 
This was their email -

Hi Carol,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Don't let the disc sit in acetone as prolonged contact will damage the backing plate.  Acetone is fine for removing the
sticky residue on the backing plate once the Topper is removed.  Just be sure to rinse thoroughly.  Dawn dishwashing liquid also works well.

To remove the Topper, you can heat it with a hair dryer or soak in very hot water to get the edge to loosen then pry off with a screw driver.  It is work but it can be done.

If you have further questions, please let us know.

So very hot water sounds like the key and maybe some Dawn dish soap, and a lot of muscle.

[hulagrub]

Carol, the hair dryer definitely takes them off. We go to the Kansas City show most every year, and the owner, Steve I think is there, he is most gracious, even when he is swamped with buyers. He also sells one heck of jewelry buffer for under $200.

[Carol M]

Carol, the hair dryer definitely takes them off. We go to the Kansas City show most every year, and the owner, Steve I think is there, he is most gracious, even when he is swamped with buyers. He also sells one heck of jewelry buffer for under $200.

Hi Dave,
I'm delighted to know that the hair dryer definitely takes them off so I'm not 'trying to gnaw them off with my teeth' (giggle) when the time comes.   

I'd so love to go to some of those shows in the US but I'm having a really hard time justifying the total cost....airfare from Toronto, hotel, blah, blah.  plus the chiropractic treatments when I try to schlep heavy suitcases [laden with booty] home.

Re Ameritool-Inc - the fellow I spoke with is named Wendell and he's really unbelievably kind and helpful.  I think they ALL are at Ameritool-Inc, and speaking as a designer, I think the Ameritool Flat Lap and Trim Saw are really well designed and well thought out and well made.
Mine seems 'solid as a rock' [pun intended]
This doesn't mean you can never get a 'lemon' but by in large I think they're a great buy for your money.

I also like that the 'resell value' doesn't seem to diminish much, not that I want to sell mine or anything, but usually when 'used equipment' sells for almost as much as new equipment, it's a great sign that the equipment is well made.

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

Good tip on the hairdryer - wish I'd known that as man-A-live I must have spent two hours prying that thing - every half-inch a struggle, to get it off and then all I got was the pad, not the plastic with the stickum facing downward. At that point I ready for being pistol-whipped rather than try so in came the olive oil. I'll try a hair-dryer next time as it'll be interesting to compare how easy that is compared to the oil (it slid right off but there was remnants to scrub off and dawn did the trick).

On the bright side - we shall fear not the disc that wanders from it's backing plate, because it shall not!

[Carol M]

On the bright side - we shall fear not the disc that wanders from its backing plate, because it shall not!

Very Profound Don,
Sounds like "The 11th Commandment"!!!  [grin]

[tntmom]

I've never had a problem removing the top plates.  I don't even use dawn.  I just soak in water for an hour or two and it peels off quite easily.  (Haven't tried a hair dryer but that is excellent information to know!!!!)  It even peels off of the sponge rubber disk without tearing it.  I think I've only ripped and needed to replace two of the sponge rubber disks so far.  Trying to take it off dry though is next to impossible!!!!

I don't facet but there is one more thing I have added to my Ameritool set up.  That is "non" psa backed faceting laps.  Only one back is needed and all top plates can be used on the same back.  Just wet the back plate and put the top plate on it and bolt down.  No need for adhesives as it stays true without it.  I use these for flats and the backs of my cabs and have the facet tops to 1200.  They are only around $30 each at JS Gems and cut extremely fast.  The flexible disks with sponge rubber disks beneath them have become my favorite thing for domes and cut my time in 1/2 for finishing the fronts!  I love them!

[Carol M]

I've never had a problem removing the top plates.  I don't even use dawn.  I just soak in water for an hour or two and it peels off quite easily.  (Haven't tried a hair dryer but that is excellent information to know!!!!)  It even peels off of the sponge rubber disk without tearing it.  I think I've only ripped and needed to replace two of the sponge rubber disks so far.  Trying to take it off dry though is next to impossible!!!!

I don't facet but there is one more thing I have added to my Ameritool set up.  That is "non" psa backed faceting laps.  Only one back is needed and all top plates can be used on the same back.  Just wet the back plate and put the top plate on it and bolt down.  No need for adhesives as it stays true without it.  I use these for flats and the backs of my cabs and have the facet tops to 1200.  They are only around $30 each at JS Gems and cut extremely fast.  The flexible disks with sponge rubber disks beneath them have become my favorite thing for domes and cut my time in 1/2 for finishing the fronts!  I love them!

Hey Krystee, 
You've surfaced....
Hope you're not working too hard these days at your new 'dream job'.   How's that going??

Re your post - [my task orienting brain kicks in....so I'm trying to get the full picture.  Is this what you do?] 
You just said you soak it for an hour or two.  Ameritool said Very Hot Water, so I'm picturing filling sink a few inches deep with as hot a water as comes out of the tap, and maybe topping it off with some more water from a tea kettle, boiling hot so that the whole thing is 'really hot' [too hot to touch] but not boiling, and dropping the disc, or maybe two discs if need be, in and letting it soak for an hour or two.
Then taking a dull knife or screwdriver and prying up the side a bit and then taking a pliers and grabbing the edge and prying it off....
or are they quite loose at this point??

Re your 2nd paragraph - I have no idea what you're saying about "non" psa backed faceting laps. 
Can you post a link to what you mean?  I looked on the JS Gems site but couldn't see them by that name?

Are they 'something different' from the discs that came with the Ameritool Flat Lap??
If yes, what's the difference??

[tntmom]

Hi Carol,

I'm alive and kicking but August is one of the busiest months of the year for me.  Busiest month for our window cleaning company, Patrick's, my brothers and my mothers birthdays, back to school shopping for the kids and this week we have my brother in-law and sister in-law visiting us from California ;)  I have about an hour or so to catch up here before they get here today from the hotel.

I never thought to use hot water but I can see how that would make it much easier to get the glue to release.  I've found that when they are saturated with water they pull up quite easy with just my fingers.     The more worn they are, the easier they seem to pull off too.  I think maybe once or twice I used pliers or something to get it started but that was before I learned how to soak them in water first.

The top plates are just like your 180 hard top disk but they have no glue on the back and are not attached to a backer.  I have a spare plastic backer and I use the same backer for all of my metal top plates as they do not need to be glued on.  The bolt holds them in place perfectly and you can adjust them around the center bolt so that you have no vibration whatsoever.  They are way too hard for doming and doing the fronts but they make doing backs and flats a breeze!!!  I was having a hard time keeping a totally flat surface and eliminating center scratches on the backs of my cabs using the flexible disks.  The facet tops solved that problem 

Here is what they look like:
http://www.jsgemslapidary.com/diamond-facet-lap/

[Carol M]

Hi Carol,

I'm alive and kicking but August is one of the busiest months of the year for me.  Busiest month for our window cleaning company, Patrick's, my brothers and my mothers birthdays, back to school shopping for the kids and this week we have my brother in-law and sister in-law visiting us from California ;)  I have about an hour or so to catch up here before they get here today from the hotel.

I never thought to use hot water but I can see how that would make it much easier to get the glue to release.  I've found that when they are saturated with water they pull up quite easy with just my fingers.     The more worn they are, the easier they seem to pull off too.  I think maybe once or twice I used pliers or something to get it started but that was before I learned how to soak them in water first.

The top plates are just like your 180 hard top disk but they have no glue on the back and are not attached to a backer.  I have a spare plastic backer and I use the same backer for all of my metal top plates as they do not need to be glued on.  The bolt holds them in place perfectly and you can adjust them around the center bolt so that you have no vibration whatsoever.  They are way too hard for doming and doing the fronts but they make doing backs and flats a breeze!!!  I was having a hard time keeping a totally flat surface and eliminating center scratches on the backs of my cabs using the flexible disks.  The facet tops solved that problem 

Here is what they look like:
http://www.jsgemslapidary.com/diamond-facet-lap/

Thanks so much Krystee.  That totally helps.
Quick question - have you been able to reuse the spongy inner discs or, when you remove the topper are they 'toast'??

Take care of yourself.......you sound pooped!!!

[tntmom]

I've only had two that I tore but the rest of them were able to be reused ;)  I don't know if I can reuse them more than once as I haven't tried yet.  I've only been using them for less than a year and have replaced the toppers only once since incorporating them into my disk setup.

[Carol M]

I've only had two that I tore but the rest of them were able to be reused ;)  I don't know if I can reuse them more than once as I haven't tried yet.  I've only been using them for less than a year and have replaced the toppers only once since incorporating them into my disk setup.

Excellent - that's good news.
It'll be interesting to see the impact that the 'hot water bath' removal method has on the re-usability of the spongy middle discs.
Time will tell.
Thanks again Krystee.

[Eu_citzen]

Batt lap and some diamond powder is a cheap and pretty good alternative. Decently priced, to. I use mine all the time.

[johnjsgems]

Batt Laps may be too heavy for Ameritool;  Are they on a metal master lap? 

[Eu_citzen]

Hmm, did not think of that. Nope, they are an all metal alloy.