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Stabilizing wood, bone, and horn

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Author Topic: Stabilizing wood, bone, and horn  (Read 2872 times)
MrsWTownsend
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« on: February 06, 2012, 12:08:06 pm »

We have had discussions in the past about vacuum stabilizers and pressurization and someone on a Facebook page I follow posted this video so I though I would share it:

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Bentiron
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 12:18:33 pm »

That's a pretty simple set up to draw a vacuum on a small piece of wood or bone. Thanks for posting it.
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pete
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 02:17:11 pm »

Great idea with a lot more applications possible. Thanks again for posting
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 02:22:03 pm »

Wonderful idea!!!! I had been thinking of a mason jar and a small shop vac, but was worried about implosions and the ability to keep a vacuum.
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 03:08:38 pm »

Thank you!  What a wonderfully simple idea!
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 03:15:25 pm »

This is wonderfully simple:)
This guy does really nice file work and makes some beautiful knives.
Thank you Gina:)
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Rocksnot
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 12:12:16 pm »

WOW!  never would have thunk  bricks
I have a couple cans of that wood hardener, works great on wood in window sills and such that is getting rotten but I never thought about using it in lapidary... 
Silly me  :P

thanks for sharing!

On a side note:  look at his hands!  LOL  somebody has 'workin hands'.  (wifey would make me wash, and wash and wash...  hehe)
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 12:50:27 pm »

Killer post Gina, thank you. yes yes
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 02:47:33 pm »

It looks like a simple way to stabilize some things, however I definitely wouldn't do it as it is shown. It poses a significant safety concern. These jars are designed to withstand some vacuum levels established with food preparation (ever notice how the lid "pops" when it is loosened?). This indicates that it is relieving the vacuum created when the canning process is done. The food is heated to can and sterilize the contents. The lid is applied when it is still hot and as it cools a vacuum occurs. This is what causes the "pop". These jars aren't designed nor tested to any standard for pressurization, thus they shouldn't be pressurized as you hold them in your hand and look at the contents! They could easily shatter and spew broken bits of glass and the liquid contents at your eyes and body. If you wanted to do the process in a safer, but not nessecarily the safest manner, the jar should be placed behind a substantial barrier or inside some kind of strong container  with the hoses leading to a safe place where you could pressurize it. After the process, bleed off the pressure before retrieving and observing it!
Just my thoughts.
Bob
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 04:58:36 pm »

Yeah, your right Bob. Your everyday jar is not made to the standards of a bell jar so we need to be careful here. I like your idea of using another barrier between me and the jar. I think if I used this I'd put it in my sand blaster cabinet.
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pete
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 05:35:35 pm »

As I understand the video it was about creating a vacuum not pressurising a jar. Pressure explodes, vacuum implodes.
Pressurising the jar to the extent of it exploding before the metal lid gives way or the connection between two, in my opinion would be substantial pressure and beyond the means of a hand device like a bicycle pump or its equivalent in this case.
The brake bleeding device used on the video is a hand operated vacuum pump and is unlikely to create the sort of black hole forces that would suck your hair and furniture into it.
The amount of vacuum needed is only enough to bleed off the air inside the porous object, as can be observed by the piece of wood bubbling on the video. I would suggest the seals and conncetion are more likely to give way before major implosion of the glass jar unless of course someone is foolish enough to use a cracked jar.
You should remember that a jar shape is inherently strong and in this vacuum case all the forces are being concentrated toward the small hole in the lid.
If there are any weak points in the setup it will be air leaking into the device causing the vacuum not to work, not a catastrophic implosion.
I think if people don't understand what is happening with the device then better not to play with it in the first place.
A naked flame poses a far greater 'significant safety concern'!
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 07:56:24 pm »

...
unlikely to create the sort of black hole forces that would suck your hair and furniture into it.
...

saved2 roar chuckle saved7 chuckle roar saved2
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 03:42:42 pm »

Twenty-three inches of mercury is a pretty substantial vacuum and having been around when vacuum tubes in TVs were all the rage and seen what can happen when the end gets knocked off the end of CRT glass can and does tend to fly even in an implosion, so yes some safety precautions would be justified. There is no need to denigrate us for wanting to be safe.
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pete
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 08:22:36 pm »

With respect Benitron, there's no comparison between the vacuum of a CRT and the hand held device used for sucking air from the brake lines. 23" of mercury (is that 'absolute' or 'guage'? big difference) is no where near the 10 to the power of minus 9 atm need for a CRT. I too have been around CRT's my whole life and still am; in fact my father invented the worlds largest air-cooled vacuum tube!
The 23" mercury would be around 20% vacuum compared to a CRT at better than 99%. The suggestion is IMHO alarmist.

To quote

"Low vacuum: 1 atm (760 Torr) to 100 Torr. This is something you may have dealt with - the suction of a vacuum cleaner, spark advance manifold on your automobile, a siphon, and so forth. None of these is anywhere near the bottom end of this range - all are probably better than .5 atm and usually much closer to 1 atm. All except the smallest incandescent light bulbs are filled with inert gas at a fraction of an atm as well. A low vacuum can be obtained by any number of simple mechanical means including fans and centrifugal blowers, piston and rotary pumps, aspirators, siphons, chemical combustion and other reactions (which use up the air), etc. Liquids boil at reduced temperature - often room temperature - in a modest vacuum but minimal or no precautions are needed to prepare surfaces and equipment since any outgassing is small compared to the remaining air.

Medium vacuum: 100 to .1 Torr. This is the range where most of the gas lasers operate. In addition, neon signs, fluorescent lamps, and other glow discharge tubes, distillation pumps, vacuum packing, and so forth require medium vacuums. A medium vacuum can be achieved with a high quaility mechanical pump.

High vacuum: .1 to 1E-6 Torr. Crooks radiometer (that thing with the black and silver vanes that spins in Sunlight), small light bulbs, thermos bottles, cold cathode (gas type) X-ray and Crooks tubes, mass spectrometers, etc. At the bottom end of this range true vacuum electronics technology becomes possible including: vacuum fluorescent display tubes, CRTs, modern hot cathode X-ray tubes; smaller particle accelerators like cyclotrons and betatrons; scanning and transmission electron microscopes. "
Ref http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/soundweapon/vacuum.htm
 
The hand held brake bleeder is not a 'high quality pump' capable of producing even a medium vacuum. It is clearly a low vacuum device with about as much precaution needed as using a bicycle pump.


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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2012, 12:56:25 pm »

OK, I'll still defer to the side of safety, thank you for the additional information. yes
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2012, 01:41:14 pm »

When I was watching that video, it occurred to me that it would probably be better to use mason jars, since they are generally thicker than most jars, and because they come in the wide-mouthed variety so you can fit in the largest slab or piece of rough possible, with no need to fill up a whole lot of excess volume with stabilizing product (think about how much it would cost to fill a jar with HXTAL!).
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2012, 03:35:35 pm »

This is the first time I've seen this thread for some reason.
That's perfect.  It's like the cheapest way to stabilize.  I have a lot of rock here that should be stabilized before use and that is frankly a perfect setup.  I'll have to do a road trip up to Harbor Freight a half hour from here with a friend of mine and check that hand pump out.  Once I set it up I will have to test it out on a block of wood I had set aside for carving to see how it works for me.  I actually have that minwax wood hardener here too.  Bet it would work wonders for stablizing Mammoth ivory.
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jackd
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2012, 04:07:14 pm »

Great possibilities !!
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« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2012, 06:41:21 pm »

I miss Gina so much:(
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« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2012, 09:52:47 pm »

I miss Gina so much:(


me too!
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2012, 09:57:34 pm »

Me three!

Gina always made me smile.
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Robin

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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2012, 09:41:19 am »

Has anyone tried this with rock? What's the best stabilizer to use for rock? Would there be any advantage to making a chamber for stabilizing rock that could do something like 10 or more times this amount of vacuum, or not?

Also, is there such a thing as a stabilizer that can be sonically cured? I know they make special epoxies and glues that stabilize when exposed to UV, but it just seems like it would be great if you could vacuum a stabilizer completely into a rock and then set it in an ultrasonic tub set to the stabilizing freq and *poof* it hardens through and through.
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2012, 10:10:03 am »

I bought a Harbor Freight brake bleeder and adapted it to vacuum test chainsaws. Works great. I acquired a bell jar and sheet of 1/4 inch rubber, but have not set it up  for vacuum yet. The bleeder is just a simple hand held /actuated vacuum pump.
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Bob

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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2012, 09:34:39 pm »

A shop light and Hxtal will work a lot better.....   dancer5   

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3rdRockFromTheFun
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« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2012, 12:28:05 am »

A shop light and Hxtal will work a lot better.....   dancer5   



What about a shop light, Hxtal AND a vacuum?
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2012, 04:34:14 am »

I find this an attractive option for materials like turquoise, porous dino bone, etc where treating rough or whole slabs with hxtal would not be a very economical option given the low price/quality of rough and the amount of liquid it would absorb.
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sealdaddy
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2013, 08:13:32 am »

I find this an attractive option for materials like turquoise, porous dino bone, etc where treating rough or whole slabs with hxtal would not be a very economical option given the low price/quality of rough and the amount of liquid it would absorb.
Right~!
I use this great product, called "Cactus Juice" to stabilize my slaps and rocks in a vacuum.
It is very reasonably priced, Plus is Reusable...because this resin is only a One Part resin, and stores for reuse in the refrigerator, or cooler room temperatures.
What is not drawn into the rock is used again, and again.
THAT makes it Incredibly cost effective~!!
I use a thick round glass jar, and a HF break bleeder hand pump to get pressure down to 26 "Hg.
You can get down to 29.5 "Hg, with the "Cactus Juice" seller's chamber and an air compressor to vacuum setup.
It is Amazing to watch all the bubbles of air rise out of my rocks, which means this resin is taking it's place inside my rocks~!!
Cactus Juice's seller also lives in TX., and he invited me to his shop.
He treated the test rocks I brought with me in one of his chambers. I heat cured them in a toaster oven (the way to do it, if only dealing with smaller amounts of rock, bone, etc.) for 45 mins at 225*.
Then I sliced, drilled and polished them, all with Zero fractures or breaking on even the most unstable of my rocks.
You really should look into this stuff, if you are interested~!!

Here is his video on using it for very hard wood, like Oak.
http://www.turntex.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=121
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2013, 09:33:24 am »

Hi.
Am on a dialup, so can't do video's.
Have any more info on the cactus juice? website or anything?
Thanks!
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sealdaddy
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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2013, 09:44:14 am »

Hi.
Am on a dialup, so can't do video's.
Have any more info on the cactus juice? website or anything?
Thanks!
Sure...Here, keep in mine he is marketing it for wood pen making, other customers use it making knife handles, but other customers use it for stabilizing Turquoise, and rocks:
http://www.turntex.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=121...
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sealdaddy
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« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2013, 03:13:51 pm »

I use that HF hand vacuum pump on a round thick sided glass pickle jar.
What do you use to stabilize your rocks, friend?


* stabilizing.jpg (379.08 KB, 1280x960 - viewed 13 times.)
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Rockvanwinkle
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« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2013, 07:53:59 pm »

I use that HF hand vacuum pump on a round thick sided glass pickle jar.
What do you use to stabilize your rocks, friend?

Hey sealdaddy, how does the cactus juice weather? Does it dry glass clear, and do you know if it yellows with age?
I have a bunch of copper rock material that I've collected, but most of it is not hard enough to work. Would love to find something that can be used to stabilize it and look good for years.
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sealdaddy
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« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2014, 04:11:10 pm »

OK, I'll still defer to the side of safety, thank you for the additional information. yes

Of course.
I vacuum in a number of resin with a round pickle jar.
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anthonyroman
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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2014, 01:50:57 pm »

Great video! Really simple and such wonderful technique. Thanks for the video
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