10" Tile Saw to 10" Trim Saw

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

I just checked and a 1.5" on the motor (smallest I have seen) to the 2" at the saw reduces the speed from 3400 to 2550...
not a lot but noticeable. 
I would be tempted to try something like that out.  I have been cutting at the 3400 rpm with a cheepo HF blade.  I would like to see what the sound level and water mist/fling is like with that speed reduction.  Not having to modify the structural mounting of that heavy motor would be a huge plus to me.
Too bad it's so freaking cold here now.  I may get parts together but won't be cutting anything out on that saw till spring for sure!

*EDIT*
Found some pulley and  belt info of interest...


CONGRESS V-Belt Pulley, 1.5 In OD, 5/8 In Bore, 1GRV   $4.63
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/v-belt-pulleys/sheaves-and-pulleys/power-transmission/ecatalog/N-hxdZ1z0h4omZ1z0ixmkZ1z0ebhy
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V-Belt Pulley,1.75 In OD,5/8 Bore,1GRV $12 to $16
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CONGRESS V-Belt Pulley, 2.25 In OD, 5/8 Bore, 1GRV   $5.68
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/CONGRESS-VBelt-Pulley-3X899?Pid=search
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TB WOOD'S V-Belt Pulley, 2.55 In OD, 5/8 Bore, 1GRV   $14
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/v-belt-pulleys/sheaves-and-pulleys/power-transmission/ecatalog/N-hxdZ1z0h4omZ1z0ixmkZ1z0e2p5
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Search for 5/8 bore 1 grove pulleys
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/v-belt-pulleys/sheaves-and-pulleys/power-transmission/ecatalog/N-hxdZ1z0h4omZ1z0ixmk
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interesting size diff. using different belt...
http://aaa-electric.net/pulleys/a-1-groove-aluminum/al1-5-58.html

AL1.5 x 5/8'' Pulley  $8.00
Solid Construction
Single-Groove Fixed-Bore Die-Cast Sheave
O.D. 1.5   
Pitch Dia. (In.)  - "3L" Belts = 1.05"   or  "A", "4L" Belts = 1.35"
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I have to find out what a "3L" belt is vs. an "A" belt but look at the size diff above !  A 1.5" pulley that counts as 1.05" using that 3L belt...  hmmmm...  gets the possibilities churning.  and how far in does the belt sit?
Maybe that 2.5 or 3" pulley would fit in the case if it was shaved down (provided the belt was fully IN the pulley)... hmmmm...
Sure wish it was spring already!  there's a Grangers here in town too (and others :) )

Hey Bruce,

If I understand correctly, 3L and 4L are automotive designations  with the 3L belt at 9.5mm wide and the 4L at 12.5mm. An 'A' belt 2" wide (5/16" deep) and is considered (usually anyway) compatible with a 4L belt. The 'A' belt is what you and I want (or 4L if we must) to maintain compatibility with the existing pulleys.

1.5" OD on the motor and 2" OD on the blade yields 2662.5rpm at the blade. If we increase the OD of the blade pulley to 3" we get 1775rpm, which - while a bit fast for some blades, would work for the BD-303 series blades within spec (1720 - 2290rpm). I'll have to check the pulley guard again to see if it could accommodate a 3" pulley at the blade. I have a feeling not, but I'm not at all beyond cutting the guard a bit at that end (slotting it) to work then figuring out later how to cover the slot. At least most of the pulley train would be covered and (most important) the saw would be anchored.

One problem, however is that I'm really not so impressed with this BD-303 blade I got thus far - that may change once I see it in action, of course. The blade kerf is very thin (you can barely tell the diff between the width at the edge and the width of the core). This is usually a good thing but it means that the saw will have to be set to cut VERY straight lines or material will be rubbing the core (and heating up the blade very quickly). On a saw with a shorter rail system this would be no problem, but ours have a very long one - what is it, like nearly 28" or something? The longer the path traveled the further off that path one becomes if even a small error is made in navigation. Kind of like a bullet - if you're shooting a target 10' away and your aim from dead center is a quarter inch off of a 5 foot wide target you'll hit it. If the same applies except that your target is 10 miles away, you'll miss it by a huge amount. So, our good fortune in having such a nice long bed/rail system is our bane in making sure that the rails are straight, on target, with increasingly small tolerance for error the thinner the blade kerf.

Here's another pulley I bought that arrived today and IT WORKS!

Maska 3.95 In. OD Cast Iron 'A' Pulley 5/8 In. Borehttp://www.electricmotorsite.com/pc/pul_fixed_a_0625/MA40x0625

The pulley itself actually measures exactly 4" across the OD but I think purist pulley OD refers to the point just inside the groove that the belt rides on (it's an area near the top of the belt usually seen visually as the place where there is a line of threads going through). I'm not going to get that detailed - it's close enough to a 4" pulley and the belt, which I got from HF (the vibration free belt Daniel mentioned - read back a few posts for the link) works like a dream. It didn't get rid of all vibration but did reduce it and it also evened it out so it's a smoother vibration. So, less and smoother (esp when it's not much to begin with) is good by me.

I'll try and get some pictures and an easier to read post up soon and maybe when we're finished (or close enough - not sure one ever finishes things we like to tinker with) we might think of posting a tutorial on how to make a HF saw a rock saw and it could have a few variable options showing how you maybe did one different than I did and vice-versa. Just an idea - it would be easier to read than our dirty tech talk here, heh heh... 

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

Bruce - here's some more interesting calculations 

Oh, and here's the calculator - this makes it so much easier and it yields all kinds of other good information:

http://www.gizmology.net/pulleysbelts.htm

With a motor pulley OD of 1.55" ( http://www.electricmotorsite.com/pc/pul_fixed_a_0625/MA15x0625 ) and a blade pulley OD of 3.45" ( http://www.electricmotorsite.com/pc/pul_fixed_a_0625/MA35x0625 ) the blade rpms would be 1595 (this would work for a really nice sintered blade - drool...) and the torque at the blade would be a little over 8 ft-lb! 

My Inland flat lap has a torque of 48 oz-in (which I believe is the same as 48 in-oz    ).

Regardless, 8 ft-lb is pretty awesome torque for a rock saw, I'm pretty sure of that. And I've been thinking of buying another one of these saws, turning it on it's side, popping a couple of holes through the bottom of a bench and you've basically got a flat lap (replacing the blade with a lap wheel). A few mods would need to be added (water tray & dam beneath wheel, arbor or something to modify the shaft to better mate with lap wheels et al) but in essence this motor + driven shaft assembly on the 2.5hp saw could be pretty handy for many lapidary purposes (a multi-wheel cabbing machine with serious torque, buffers and on and on).

Oh yah... saw. I wanna make a rock saw (I get easily sidetracked), heh heh...

[Rocksnot]

sweet belt chart:  http://www.gates.com/catalogs/file_display.cfm?file=Belt_ID_Chart_bkmrks.pdf&thisPath=gates\catalogs

the 'L' is for 'light' duty and the 'A' if for hi-power.  the dimensions of the L belt allow it to sit deeper in the v groove so the 1.5" pulley can be a 1" pulley.  If that is the cast it may bring the speed down to about half...


May need to get a 2.5" pulley for the blade end (and if needed shave the outside dia. down to fit the belt cover assmbly)  I would not mind a light duty belt.  Aligned up and not over tensioned it should work fine.  I would rather lose a belt (safe in a heavy iron housing) than lose the blade.  Not so scary and waaaay cheaper.  I would still cuss and spit for having to mess with it but whaaaa.  LOL
The only time I would have maybe messed up a light belt I was cutting a feisty hunk of quartz with 20+ lbs. hanging off the table and dressing the blade at the same time.  When the diamonds once again showed themselves and the blade started ripping into the rock it pulled down hard on the motor speed...  I figured that I would reduce the weight at that point - being impatient and using a blade not rated for that material was causing me the trouble, pushing harder was not the answer :(  dam anyway!  LOL

From using this saw for the few hours I have cutting on it I really don't think it would make too much difference using a lighter duty belt, but I am by no means an expert.  I have also cut brick and tile and concrete on it.  With the HF blade that is what it was meant to cut...  even set the blade for half the thickness of a brick, made several cuts in succession and actually got a rabbit joint.  I didn't think that was too bad a deal for this saw, half the thickness of an old paver (3" thick-ish) about 1/8 - 3/16 space between cuts and about 40 cuts to get the rabbit joint it cut quick and smooth hardly any work to it!  Now if I can get a blade that will cut quartz and agate like that on this saw I'd be in rock slicing heaven 0:-)

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

That IS  sweet chart, I spent days looking for one of those - excellent find! 

Before I forget - while the anti-vibration link belt I'm using does work and does nearly completely eliminate heat (and cuts vibration quiet a bit) it DOES ADD about 1/4" to each side of each pulley, so - even on one of these machines with stock pulleys - the pulley-guard won't fit with it. Also, for as much as I love this belt, it's like a chainsaw made of fiberglass. It caught the handle of my hammer the other day and took a serious bite out of the hard rubber coating on the steel handle - had it been my arm it would have taken meat to the bone. So, my sentiment on the importance of a pulley-guard have quadrupled after that! 

Not sure a light duty belt will work. I believe that's what is causing all the heat buildup on mine, though I'll have to check the belts tried (against that awesome chart!) thus far to be sure. I do know that the stock belt is sturdier and grooved - I'm betting it's a high power belt and also that the grooves prevented slippage (which would generate heat). And the heat was originating from the stock pulley side with all these other belts, not the modified pulley side.

Riding low may work for ratios but be sure and remember that it'll ride the same amount low on the other pulley (cancelling out the effect I think) so you might have to use a pulley mated to the belt on the other side so it rides normal on that end.

I don't think you'd snap a light duty belt even if you stalled the machine - these are tough belts. But you'll have to do something about the heat. My final test of the belts I was using (which I'm betting were light duty - no grooves and they rode a bit different) was a 15 minute run and the motor pulley actually got too hot to touch (apparently it was just increasing in temp the longer the machine was on). That probably would snap a belt before long (if you can smell burning rubber it's not such a good thing).

Right now I'm just going back and forth over this thing trying to devise a safe way to anchor the motor assembly in a position I can cut at so I can start test cuts (and also get a few things cut that I want to work on). Lots of ideas but thus far all either complex, overkill or unsafe (wrap enough hangers around the rear assembly and sure it'll hold, lol...)

Anyway, I'm determined enough to have a working 10" lap saw (and you seem to be also) that I'm confident we'll get this all worked out before long. Hell - if need be I will indeed run at stock speed - seems the BD-303c blade is a steel bond, not a silver bond, and so I shouldn't have to worry about shrapnel from a bond melting in the heat of overdrive - just shortened blade life. If that's the case, and if necessary, I'll learn to sleep fine at night with that.

Gears whirring in my head...

Oh - you know another, less desirable in some ways at least, idea is to use a smaller blade - at least when trimming already cut slabs. Smaller blades == higher speed ratings AND thinner blade possibilities. At very least it might get me using the beast in beast between modification trials.

--

p.s. There's no doubt in my mind, as well, that this motor could handle a 12" or even a 14" blade. Another 'just a thought' idea - that would possibly help justify going a bit more overkill (I'm tempted to just mount the motor assembly on the side of the top (so the pulley overhands to one side) an 18" by 18" metal box with blade slot cut in it. That would solve water spray problem, mount problem, pulley-guard problem partly (should be easy to find a guard or box that'd work as one  if nothing has to mount on it) etc. and it could then be run on oil (nothing but the blade and blade shaft would be exposed to the spray) if desired. Lot to swallow there and not sure I'm ready to give in to expanding the project, but worth keeping somewhere on the list perhaps.

[Rocksnot]

All that heat?!  makes me wonder...  I have run this saw for 5 hours straight and had no issues.  Granted I had not taken the belt guard off and felt the pulleys...
 I have not (yet) messed with the motor / blade mounting or pulleys, couple things come to mind; belt tension and alignment.  
Gear and chain would be nice.  Years ago I had mini bike with 5 hp motor that ran like a banshee got me thinking about it cause the gear # of teeth range available was vast, the chain ran dry for the most part.
More worms coming out the can :)

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

All that heat?!  makes me wonder...  I have run this saw for 5 hours straight and had no issues.  Granted I had not taken the belt guard off and felt the pulleys...
 I have not (yet) messed with the motor / blade mounting or pulleys, couple things come to mind; belt tension and alignment.  
Gear and chain would be nice.  Years ago I had mini bike with 5 hp motor that ran like a banshee got me thinking about it cause the gear # of teeth range available was vast, the chain ran dry for the most part.
More worms coming out the can :)

Sorry, I didn't explain that very well.

As far as I know it runs just fine, without excess heat buildup, with the original pulleys and belt.

It's only with the light duty belts and new pulleys that heat buildup occurs. To the best of my knowledge, anyway, as I did not check it for heat prior to changing pulleys. But, as you, I ran it for several hours (putting load on it, no less) and I don't recall any excess heat anywhere. I know I touched the pulleys not long after shutting it off because there was rock dust from the spray on everything including the outside of the pulley guard and a little on the inside of the guard. Seems I would have noticed if it got as hot as it's been getting with the light duty belts.

The reason I suspect the belts and not the pulleys or alignment is because I've tried three different makes of pulley, this latest one being cast iron like the originals. It is larger, so that may have something to do with it - but the heat is originating on the motor pulley (an original pulley).

Again - this is only with the light duty belts and any of the new pulleys I have tried.

I have tried all manner of alignment and it seems to have little impact.

The prudent thing to do I suppose would be to put the original configuration back in place and verify that it was not incurring any significant heat buildup. That or try a heavy duty belt on the current configuration.

The anti-vibration belt I'm using is not a good comparison belt because it stops heat buildup in a different way - by absorbing it and dissipating it rapidly. Also, while I'm not certain - it's possible that it IS a heavy duty belt (not a light duty) as well.

Did any of that make sense? 

[Rocksnot]

So, how's it going?  Have you tried it out yet?  Did you get the speed down and get the belt guard on?
Still waiting for the weather here to get safe from freezing to pull mine back out :/  Thinking about the speed and new blade still and very interested in how you are doing (since we both have the same machine)  :)

[3rdRockFromTheFun]

Hey Bruce, I had the correct pulley finally and because I could not wait I used a heavy gauge wire (wire hangers    ) to secure it into place (which was quite the chore) and filled 'er with water and spun 'er up.

I have to say the slower speed did not prevent glazing over at all. In fact it was much easier to stall and seemed to labor more intensely. If I had an auto-feed with the table rails lined up perfectly to a 'T' it might have been okay.

Between the glazing over and the fact that I can about a quarter inch from swinging my shirt tail into the pulley belt I decided to put it back the way it was and the next day I tried it again at full speed.

Both times I used the Barranca 303C blade.

It works much better, at least by hand, with the machine at full speed. Definitely get yourself a BD-303C blade and give it a whirl. I did have to use an old grinding wheel several times because of glazing but man it's worth it - I cut a lot of rock in the few hours or so i had it running. And, if you're careful, you get really nice cuts (smooth faced slabs - like a pro). If you do run into any problems, such as the rock running into the core partway in - it's the table alignment most likely.

So, I should end this thread by saying that slowing this thing down is more of a hassle than it's worth and if anything it served only to make the machine perform worse.

I would still like to add a clamp like you did and somehow put shielding around it (I had a half inch of water all over the room to clean up and then a thin layer of very-stuck-in-place mud after that - no fun).

Go to youtube and do a search on "carving agate" - it a three or four part series. If you watch the first one, where they're hand feeding agate into a blade - that's the method I found works well for some reason (freehand - right in the air). Probably not the safest but honestly given the nature of the blade I'm using - probably not any more dangerous than hand holding to a table and feeding.