Helios Red Helios Green Helios Blue Helios Purple

Lapidary / Gemstone Community Forum
September 25, 2017, 12:54:20 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This Forum has moved to a new host.  Please go to http://lapidaryforum.net/group/index.php and sign up so you can participate.  You will no longer be able to post here.  It is now a read-only archive.
 
  Home Help Search Classifieds Gallery Links Classified / Auctions Staff List Login Register  

Black Jade

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Black Jade  (Read 1878 times)
jakesrocks
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2112


New Toy.


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2015, 09:19:30 am »

What started out as a simple request for a slab of black jade seems to have turned into a full blown battle over what is & what is not black jade.  A my lab is better than your lab is.

I was following this thread in hopes of gaining knowledge,  Instead I find myself  reading a cheap novel.  Grow up &  act like gentlemen.
Report Spam   Logged

A day spent without learning something new, is a day wasted.

Don

55fossil
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 272


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2015, 11:31:37 am »

      Oh come on Don, some of us are enjoying this.  This is one of the big dilemmas in the rock business that affects all rock hounds and collectors. I have frequently bought rough and slabs from long time dealers that had been misidentified. One of the big sellers who posts here at times once told me " if they said it was XXXX when I bought it, that is what I sell it as." I actually appreciate when these discussions occur as it can be a good learning tool, sometimes. When I buy or cut stones my biggest concern is if it is pretty. But many people place more value on name that beauty. Just look at the crap they sell on e-bay called Owyhee picture jasper.

 
    throw Jake a biscuit for me
Report Spam   Logged

finegemdesigns
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 445



View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2015, 12:57:15 pm »

First of all, even Rob Kulakofsky, who owns ColorWright (Great Rough, Great Slabs, etc.) says in his description of of Absolute Black that it is not true jade:

"Absolute Black "Jade" Rough
Absolute Black "Jade" is gem grade ferro-hornblende and not a true jade. It is absolutely black, with no green undertones, just like the Edwards black jade mined long ago in Wyoming. Absolute Black "Jade" is denser and has a higher refractive index than true jade. Absolute Black "Jade" quickly takes a higher polish than can be obtained with true jades. Unlike black onyx, which is dyed chalcedony, Absolute Black "Jade" is completely natural. Excellent material for inlay, cabochons and beads. Mohs hardness 6.5."

Second, play nice.  Most of the folks on this board are upstanding people who are truly interested in knowing exactly what the material they have is.  Slandering members will not be tolerated.  Nobody on this board that I know of wants to sell material as something it isn't, so if there is an offer of testing to find out what it is, take it as exactly that -- an offer.

'Nuff said.

As mentioned above these discussions may get heated but this doesn't mean they shouldn't take place.

As to your specific post yes greatslabs.com is hedging on their description of their jade. Why? because they understand that the debate is still ongoing and they don't want to get into trouble later. Here is a sample scenario:

1. Person buys a piece of Arizona Absolute Black Jade.
2. This person then makes a diamond and black jade ring with said jade.
3. This person then sells this ring to a client.
4. Client decides to sell the ring and to do so gets a lab report from the GIA.
5. GIA report comes back as diamond and black amphibole.
6. Client gets angry since now they can't sell their ring because the GIA won't commit to the term nephrite and therefore by definition will not commit to the term "jade."

This is a very logical approach by greatslabs.com to protect themselves and their business.

It does NOT however prove that the Arizona material is any less a jade than Edwards.

The same scenario would happen if the stone was Edwards because as far as the GIA is concerned they are simply BOTH black amphiboles.

The gemstone community has as a group been using the term Absolute Black Jade for many years now. You never hear this material being called Absolute Black Amphibole. The community has spoken and the fact that a few Edwards Black enthusiasts disagree doesn't change the overall consensus.
Report Spam   Logged



Talusman
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 418


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2015, 05:32:59 pm »

If anyone wants to get personally invested in the debate - I noticed there's a 20-lb lot of Edward's Black (fill in the blank) on eBay right now for only $4,000. I have no knowledge of seller or personal interest in listing - just sharing!

-Jeremy
Report Spam   Logged
55fossil
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 272


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2015, 05:59:41 pm »

   I love jade but I am no expert by any means. But at $200 a pound I would need to see a polished section, a slab both front and back lit and a return policy of no questions asked. I am sad to say integrity is not the most common thing even among sellers of jade, jaspers and agates for under $20 a pound. Just because a rock sells by the pound and not the carat does not mean it is not important to be precise about it's origin and description. I am amazed at how many sellers at rock shows sell material that is incorrectly identified. Original Owyhee jasper and Regency Rose Plume Agate are two that I find at every show and all over the internet that are improperly identified in order to get a better selling price.
        This is why discussions like this one are vital on an open internet site like this one.    While all the politeness is warming we do need to call a spade a spade at times. When you start bending definitions to fit in a special rock or location all Hell should break loose. Look at what Etsy and Amazon now define as hand made. So let us keep Jade as Jade and not start sliding down the slope of.. well, it is like jade, looks like jade, similar to jade. Then we can move onto what is natural Turquoise... ahhhhhhhh....   sorry.
Report Spam   Logged

Hummingbirdstones
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1286



View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2015, 07:30:48 pm »

By all means, have your discussion.  That is the whole purpose of this forum.  Just do it civilly. 
Report Spam   Logged

Robin

" border="0
Michael S Hoover - Redrummd
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1647


Art In Stone


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2015, 08:18:17 pm »

I will state that a ferro-hornblende is not Nephrite and if proper testing has already been done  on Absolute Black "Jade" then there really is no further Washington University testing necessary.  Anyone wanting to buy Nephite would not buy a ferro-hornblende so it would be a waste of my resource to ask for a re-test.  If you read the note to me from the UW testing I think you will see what I and the University need to see to declare a test piece as Nephrite Jade.

I will state again that there are a lot of true black Nephrite Jades which includes TRUE Edwards Jade.  I include in true black all that appear black to the human eye as if cut down to 1/100 to 1/1000 inch they may show to be actually a dark, dark, dark green.

The reason I keep noting that TRUE Edwards Black Jade is Nephrite is the fact there are a lot of Black true Nephrites from Wyoming, Washington and British Columbia that have been tested at the University of Washington.  Edwards Black was pretty much mined out down to about 50 feet in the late 1950's and then in the 1960's a bit more down to 65 feet.  A lot of the chips and other black material in the tailings were not Jade.  This paragraph is done from my memory and may be a bit off on depths and timeframes so it is not guaranteed to be 100% correct.

I should note that UW is only testing Jades from the US and Canada and there are probably true black Nephrite Jades from other locations.

Report Spam   Logged

jakesrocks
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2112


New Toy.


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2015, 08:27:43 pm »

By all means, have your discussion.  That is the whole purpose of this forum.  Just do it civilly. 


This is exactly what I meant in my comments. Keep it civil. No more, no less. I saw that the conversation was beginning to turn mean spirited, so I spoke out.
Report Spam   Logged

A day spent without learning something new, is a day wasted.

Don

Hummingbirdstones
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1286



View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2015, 08:50:31 pm »

Thank you, Don!   hugs32
Report Spam   Logged

Robin

" border="0
vitzitziltecpatl
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 696



View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2015, 09:07:34 pm »

As a closet science geek, I like to see **** test results. Lots of us out here not conversant in the finer technical details, but who can be comfortable with "x,y,z in this rock equals x,y,z in that rock".

After reading this thread, I found cool stuff like Jadeite has a specific forumula - Na(Al,Fe3+)Si2O6 - according to one source, while Nephrite is described as "...felted amphiboles of the tremolite - actinolite series. In addition to amphibole, nephrite can contain minor to trace amounts of diopside, grossularitic garnet, magnetite, chromite, graphite, apatite, rutile, pyrite, datolite, vesuvianite, prehnite, talc, the serpentine polymorphs and titanite." No specific formula in that description.

Then there's this:

http://www.gia.edu/jade

-----

Mineral:  Jadeite and Nephrite

Chemistry: NaAlSi2O6 and Ca2(Mg,Fe)5Si8O22(OH)2

Color:  Green, white, orange, yellow, lavender, black

Refractive index:  1.666 to 1.680 (+/-0.008) and 1.606 to 1.632 (+0.009, 0.006)

Birefringence:  Usually not detectable

Specific gravity:  3.34 and 2.95

Mohs Hardness: 6.5 to 7 and 6.0 to 6.5

-----

So let me ask if I've got this right. All Nephrite is an Amphibole, but not all Amphiboles are Nephrite. If something fits the GIA formula and properties, then it is Nephrite. Right? Biggest problem is that there will always be discussions like this when commonly (mis)used trade terminology come into play.

Now - everyone break out the lab results. Heaven forbid scientists would ever disagree about anything.

It's all good. I've learned more tonight about Jade than I ever thought I would know. Thanks, guys!
Report Spam   Logged

lithicbeads
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4927


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2015, 09:37:35 pm »

Always good advice , " caveat emptor".
Report Spam   Logged

finegemdesigns
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 445



View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2015, 11:51:18 pm »

There really isn't anything new here so unless this changes my posts stand.

Agree or disagree, anyone who views this discussion carefully and does the research can make their own choices on how to proceed when buying, selling or working with these various jades.

I hope this post qualifies as civil.
Report Spam   Logged



Michael S Hoover - Redrummd
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1647


Art In Stone


View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2015, 11:59:49 pm »

For those interested I get most of my Jade through Jade West and they carry my knives in their stores.

The GIA site has the most recent October 2015 GIA article which was heavily contributed too by both Kirk Makepiece and his daughter Nikki.  Heck, they even have a photo of the two of them in the article and it is a very comprehensive overview of the current Nephrite market.  One of my most proud moments in my work with Jade was the fact that Kirk gave his daughter and husband Paul, a set of kitchen knives I did for their wedding.  So, yes with my work with Jade from the Jade West mines  -  I am a bit tied into the mining and sale of Nephrite including into China.

Here is the link: -

http://www.gia.edu/gia-news-research/nephrite-jade-road-evolution-green-nephrite-market
Report Spam   Logged

wyrock
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 948



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2015, 06:11:02 am »

I am not an expert my any means but  I have worked quite a bit of jade of many colors though and what I make the most are solid jade rings (no metal). Jade is the only thing tough enough to hold up as a ring and I have tried a lot of other stones to prove it. For example agate, quartz and jasper rings won't last a day on the finger without breaking.

Nephrite and jadeite rings will break but it takes one hell of a whack on steel or stone to break them. I have not been able to break one on wood or composite table top (the cheap veneer). This is a crude and non expertite testing method but it works for me. I break test to the point of bruising my hand so I do not sell junk but the ones I give away are not tested to extreme for pain sake.

I had heard rumors and rumblings about Arizona black jade but could not find any and the other people looking for it could not find any or a location. Bang, Arizona black jade on the market but was told it was not jade. I had to know so I bought some at an exorbitant price to check it out because at times I want true black for other projects.

I did my testing and I would NOT give away a ring made from the Arizona black whatever. I have not had the opportunity to make a ring from the Edwards but I have other black jades (really really dark green) and all of them hold up quite well. Some of what I have I am not sure where it came from but one is from an extinct mine in Joshua Tree CA. It may not have a GIA but I would sell it as a ring even though the end on a couple of pieces have an excessive amount of tremolite which I stay away from.

After all those words I probably could have just said "stay away from the AZ black ?stuff? that is on the market unless you are just looking for a black rock". I have a copy of an article from a prominent rock and gem magazine that states "one in twelve tests at the Smithsonian said it was nephrite" so when the owner of the ?stuff? saw that one test it must have been enough for him to say it was nephrite.

 dunno dunno dunno
Jim
Report Spam   Logged

Making rocks immortal one stone at a time.
Hummingbirdstones
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1286



View Profile WWW
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2015, 07:09:05 am »

finegemdesigns - it did and thank you!   dancer5
Report Spam   Logged

Robin

" border="0
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum | Buy traffic for your forum/website

Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines