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Black Jade

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zurn
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« on: December 03, 2015, 03:03:57 pm »

Hello
Im looking for a black jade slab
I figured everything would be the place to start
Thanks
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slabbercabber
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2015, 04:28:53 pm »

Are you looking for absolute black (hornblende) or Wyoming black jade.  I have the latter.
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lithicbeads
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2015, 04:33:15 pm »

The Arizona materiel is not jade . Black has become fairly expensive but there has been quite a bit of Cowen Australia black at rock shows. This can be premium black but black from all areas can be plagued with small white inclusions of feldspar .
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mossyrockhound
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2015, 11:23:18 pm »

As mentioned, the black jade is getting kind of pricey.  I walked around on the beach a few months ago and picked up some of the black rock that looked like it would take a polish, then brought it home and checked it out.  It worked up pretty good for the price.  Here are the pieces I picked up and a pendant I made from one of them.

 

You might want to walk around on the beach and save a little money.  yippie  My 2 daughters and wife all got a pendant as a souvenir from the beach cabins we were staying in & they loved them.
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zurn
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2015, 02:37:33 pm »

Hi all
slabcrabber being new I dont know the difference
as i am also finding true black jade can be pricey
I may start out with the suggestion from  mossy which by the way nice find
those look great nice polish
but I will remember you offerslabcrabber
Thanks all
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2015, 11:08:21 am »

Strictly speaking even Edwards is not "jade" since the word jade includes only materials identified as either nephrite or jadeite.

I have never seen a GIA report which will commit to identifying any black amphibole as nephrite.

So if this is the case then we have to understand that the gemstone community is using the term "jade" loosely and if we say it's OK to call Edwards Black Jade jade then we should also be able to call the Arizona material Absolute Black Jade.

I have some pages on Black Jade on my website here:

http://www.finegemdesigns.com/blackjadesnavigation.htm

Note: I will be adding some information about Black Jadeite soon since I have some samples from Guatemala.
This material can't ever be disputed as a jade since it is actually JADEITE.

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Michael S Hoover - Redrummd
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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2015, 03:26:41 pm »

Strictly speaking TRUE Edwards Black jade is Nephrite.  Here are the test results from 2011 from the University of Washington's Geology Department -

________________________________________
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.net [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.net]
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 9:37 AM
To: Michael Hoover
Subject: Re: edwards black

Hi Mike
the Edwards has been tested and more tests will be performed to hopefully include talking George into taking it into the SEM.
It tests better than any BC jade for sure,
and tested better than the Wyoming green piece I got from Agren.

Appears to be a super nice actinolite-tremolite nephrite jade with nice high peaks for tremolite.
I found no evidence of quartz which is defined by specific 2 theta peaks on the graph readouts.

There is a graph peak near one of the known and predominant qtz peaks,
but it needs to be ferreted out with d-spacing data as I cannot identify yet,
and I have been using 2 theta peaks for determinations.
That specific peak is not only too far from the precise qtz peak,
but it is not accompanied by the required other qtz peaks to be qtz.
It probably is an unascribed actinolite peak not found in the data reference I use.

George is going to coach me on using a seriously complex data book on d-spacing,
and I have done some d-spacing work as opposed to just 2 theta data,
and that should help the finer tuning of data.

You will see the 2 theta peaks on the graph,
and those will have numbers like 10.52, ...28.6... etc, and the d-spacing values will be listed just below the 2 theta values.

A problem occurs when using the machine.
When the chem grad students are using it profusely then the machine XRay tube  is super warmed up,
and we have seen that overall data produced per specimen is little on the low side of text data.
This is a problem when comparing actinolite to tremolite at certain peaks.... or even hornblende for that matter.
However, there are certain tremolite peaks that actinolite and hornblende cannot have.
Those are definitely present in almost all samples seen.
Also when packing slides with powderized sample material;, if they are packed too low, data gets skewed a pinch.
I may have to go to a different method of slide prep.
I use aluminum packing sample slides, and there is a different approach available,
but I have to have permission to use that method.


Your Edwards Black is superb material.
You can just see it and feel it when handling it.
The hardness results not from the quartz suspect, but most likely from the tremendous character of this specimen itself,
representing intensely interlocked fibers of actinolite-tremolite.
It exceeds 95% of all the salt water beach black in quality. 
I have tested a couple of beach black pieces that tested better than the Edwards in tremolite and actinolite peaks,
but no matter what,
the beach black stuff here will have a percentage of feldspars... though often slight,
they do compromise the hardness and the purist of blackness desired.
We also have a genre of "green-black" from the beaches here that tests well.

The Edwards had no discernable chlorites to consider whereas ALL Washington nephrites
will display some level of chlorite,
from minute to inundated.
I have seen however ...Washington nephrites with explosive tremolite levels exceeding anything anywhere else,
and that could mean a host of explanations,
so until better authority is approached with cumulative data,
I cannot comment on that phenomena.
ie
I need to extensively talk to George Mustoe,
but I need to organize specific data sheets to specific questions etc,
and ultimately,
puzzling data and samples go into the SEM ...electron microscope

I will have to review the BC jades but my memory is that there were no chlorites in those either.

There will be more testing on your pieces as time goes on.

I will send you a copy of the XRD data sheet on the Edwards.
If I were you I would back pocket that untill more data is produced from those samples.

Can you open attachments with images?
If so I can send an image of the XRD data.

You are welcome to have other items tested if they warrant the effort I have to produce in doing so.
Often I leave the university at midnight to 1 AM when done testing after 5 hours of work on prep and testing and cleanup of labs,
and I do this late in the evenings because nobody else is there,
so I don't get in the way of grad students etc.

Thanks
Vic

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Michael S Hoover - Redrummd
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2015, 03:35:53 pm »

Here are photos of the tested piece of Edwards and a photo of Edwards Black being held by the Grandson of Edward's.



* Edwards Jade Wyoming 2.JPG (970.66 KB, 2304x1728 - viewed 13 times.)

* Edwards Jade Wyoming 3.JPG (879.9 KB, 2304x1728 - viewed 14 times.)

* Edwards Black jade displayed by his grandson.jpg (47.14 KB, 620x490 - viewed 14 times.)
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jakesrocks
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2015, 03:58:14 pm »

Another piece of what I believe is Edwards Black. This was inherited from an old friend who passed away. His collection of rocks dated back into the 40's.  I've noticed with this piece that if a strong light is aimed behind a very thin edge that the material is really a very dark green. Almost black. But on a solid polished surface it is a true black.

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finegemdesigns
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« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2015, 04:46:42 pm »

If anyone here can produce a GIA report that identifies Edwards as nephrite I will gladly agree with the assessment.

I think though there are several reasons why the GIA will not do this.

1. There is considerable debate as to whether "nephrite" is even a specific rock. For example:

[QUESTION] "The problem is there are many variations of amphiboles with varying percentages of different minerals so how is it even possible to 100% define "nephrite?"
 
[ANSWER] "We do not need to 100% define Nephrite based on exact composition.  It is a GENERAL descriptive term applied and used to describe a massive rock made up of a single or variable amphibole minerals that have been changed by heat and pressure (metamorphosed ) to a tough felted mass if interlocking fibers The fibers are actual micro crystals of the amphibole mineral and retain the structural chemistry  of the original mineral.  I have a beautiful piece of apple green jade that has a thin skin of altered white and cream colored rind and under the microscope at 30 X,  you can see the distinct fibers in the felted structure. I wish I had a camera attached to my scope or send you a picture of it. A good comparison of felted material is to look at a high grade felt hat under the microscope and observe the fibers They are highly dense and woven or felted together.( try tearing good felt!  )  In good quality nephrite jade, the micro crystals look much the same way but without the air between them as they have grown together to form a solid mass.he air between them as they have grown together to form a solid mass."

 Credit: Glenn Laidlaw (wrminerals) Wind River Minerals

And this:

Definition of "nephrite."

"Nephrite is a member of the solid solution series Tremolite-Actinolite-Ferro-Actinolite. You can think of this series like a tetter totter where one end is the magnesium rich end member (Tremolite) and the iron rich end member Ferro-Actinolite on the opposite end. Actinolite which has both magnesium and iron in the middle at the balance point. To complicate the situation nephrite is considered to be somewhere between tremolite and actinolite in chemical composition. The higher the magnesium content in the formation process the lighter colored the mineral will be. Iron departs the green color so the more iron the greener the color to which point  it will appear black."

Credit: Credit: kennyg
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http://gemstone.smfforfree4.com

And finally this:

[QUESTION] Is Edwards Black Jade nephrite?

Note: Glenn Laidlaw (quoted above) has 35 years of experience with Wyoming minerals and had some Edwards Black Jade analyzed on two separate occasions.

 [ANSWER] "Most of the black Jades are a iron rich, actinolite based felted rock produced through metamorphism. Many of the black jades in the wyoming jade fields fit this description also. But the Edwards mine material has a slightly different appearance and properties. much less of the felted structure and no inclusions other than a ocasional relic quartz xtal replacement near the vein walls. I have collected material, small chips of jade from the mine dump and they have a range of colors from olive green to pure black at the site. The Wyoming State geologist, Wayne Sutherland, visited the site with me last summer and collected samples.

 Before that, the Wyoming Geo Survey said that it had tested the material out as iron rich actinolite.

 I have not seen his report on the material he collected that day. I did give a sample to Gunnar Farber of Samswegan, Germany.

 Gunnar is a friend and a international rare mineral dealer who has the equipment to differentiate the cation ratios that define the endless varieties of the amphibole family and he told me that he found the piece I gave him to be a pyroxene called Pigeonite (!) with small inclusions of Pumpellyite ( another rock forming silicate mineral ... there are about 5 recognized varieties )."

 Credit: Glenn Laidlaw, Wind River Minerals

So it would appear that we have conflicting reports. Some say Edwards Black is nephrite and others will not commit to this name for reasons stated above.

But nobody can dispute that the GIA is the final authority that the public trusts to make gem identifications.

And I have yet to see a single GIA report that will commit to using the term "nephrite" for ANY black amphibole including Edwards Black. This is because the word "nephrite" is a GENERAL DESCRIPTIVE term.

So what is the point? The point I'm making is that the folks at greatslabs.com have as much right to call their Arizona material black jade as people who call Edwards Black jade. There are people who would like Edwards to be the only black amphibole to be classified as nephrite but this not supported by the data.

I'm NOT saying Edwards isn't a wonderful material. It is the best combination of black and toughness I've seen among black amphiboles.

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Michael S Hoover - Redrummd
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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2015, 08:36:33 pm »

finegemdesigns - Nephrite requires both tremolite and actinolite and a correct specific gravity range.  If you can get me a absolutely verified piece of the Arizona material I will see if I can get it tested. 
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« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2015, 09:27:05 pm »

finegemdesigns - Nephrite requires both tremolite and actinolite and a correct specific gravity range.  If you can get me a absolutely verified piece of the Arizona material I will see if I can get it tested. 

I don't need you to verify anything. All the data is freely available in my above posts and on my website. Refute anything I've posted or stop saying [applies to  lithicbeads etc.] Edwards is the only true jade based on the flawed premise that Edwards is the only black amphibole that can be called nephrite.

In case you are wondering I have a lab report that calls Boots Black (Black Jade Actinolite) nephrite also. See here:

http://www.zbestvalue.com/LabReports.htm

But on that page you will also see a GIA report that will not commit to the term nephrite. So if Boots Black is nephrite then it's also "jade" by definition. Which kind of ruins the idea that Edwards is the only black amphibole that deserves the term jade.
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Michael S Hoover - Redrummd
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2015, 10:20:29 pm »

Please, do not put "words" in my "mouth".  I have never written ANYTHING like this: " ...stop saying [applies to  lithicbeads etc.] Edwards is the only true jade based on the flawed premise that Edwards is the only black amphibole that can be called nephrite."

There are actually a lot of black Nephrite Jade's.  True Edwards is one of them. 

I have never given you an argumentative posting and I was offering to ask the University of Washington to test the Arizona stone to see if it was truly Nephrite.  I and most others who collect or work with Jade find the University of Washington to be trustworthy in testing and identifying Nephrite.  It is costly to do these tests in personal time and in run time on equipment in the lab that costs millions.

Why you got all wrapped up tight over a kind offer is beyond me.  Chill man.....   walker
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finegemdesigns
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2015, 12:08:29 am »

Please, do not put "words" in my "mouth".  I have never written ANYTHING like this: " ...stop saying [applies to  lithicbeads etc.] Edwards is the only true jade based on the flawed premise that Edwards is the only black amphibole that can be called nephrite."

There are actually a lot of black Nephrite Jade's.  True Edwards is one of them. 

I have never given you an argumentative posting and I was offering to ask the University of Washington to test the Arizona stone to see if it was truly Nephrite.  I and most others who collect or work with Jade find the University of Washington to be trustworthy in testing and identifying Nephrite.  It is costly to do these tests in personal time and in run time on equipment in the lab that costs millions.

Why you got all wrapped up tight over a kind offer is beyond me.  Chill man.....   walker

Why is your lab better than any of the labs I've mentioned? Maybe because they give you the results you want?

This IS a big deal by the way since the public knows very little about the nomenclature of these materials. Folks that make such a claim like Edwards is a jade and Arizona is not hurt the ability of some people to sell their jade.

For example what if I went public on TV and the big Tucson shows and convinced everyone that Arizona was true jade and Edwards was just a random amphibole? Then the shoe is on the other foot and you would find it difficult to make more money with Edwards knives. Think about this before you label me as a troublemaker.

Oh and if you had read my post carefully (re: words in my mouth) you would have seen that I specifically referred to the person above who made the claim that Arizona is not a jade. So you don't need to be offended by something that wasn't directed your way. (unless of course you agree with that person)
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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2015, 08:02:44 am »

First of all, even Rob Kulakofsky, who owns ColorWright (Great Rough, Great Slabs, etc.) says in his description of of Absolute Black that it is not true jade:

"Absolute Black "Jade" Rough
Absolute Black "Jade" is gem grade ferro-hornblende and not a true jade. It is absolutely black, with no green undertones, just like the Edwards black jade mined long ago in Wyoming. Absolute Black "Jade" is denser and has a higher refractive index than true jade. Absolute Black "Jade" quickly takes a higher polish than can be obtained with true jades. Unlike black onyx, which is dyed chalcedony, Absolute Black "Jade" is completely natural. Excellent material for inlay, cabochons and beads. Mohs hardness 6.5."

Second, play nice.  Most of the folks on this board are upstanding people who are truly interested in knowing exactly what the material they have is.  Slandering members will not be tolerated.  Nobody on this board that I know of wants to sell material as something it isn't, so if there is an offer of testing to find out what it is, take it as exactly that -- an offer.

'Nuff said.
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